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DjchunKfunK
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Re: General Gaming News

Post by DjchunKfunK » Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:43 pm

Seen reports that they might have been fired, whatever the truth it seems they have left quite abruptly so it doesn't seem things are going well at the studio.

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Re: General Gaming News

Post by Medicine Man » Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:57 pm

Hasn't Casey Malone just returned to Bioware relatively recently?

Certainly lends credence to Dj's thoughts that all is not well at Bioware, who lets be honest haven't put out a good game in 10 years

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Re: General Gaming News

Post by Wrathbone » Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:15 pm

Medicine Man wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:57 pm
Hasn't Casey Malone just returned to Bioware relatively recently?

Certainly lends credence to Dj's thoughts that all is not well at Bioware, who lets be honest haven't put out a good game in 10 years
Ignoring Dragon Age 2 and 3 and Mass Effect 2 and 3, all of which came out in the last decade and I have thoroughly enjoyed. ;) The Old Republic has a loyal following too, and Andromeda has its fans, so I’d argue it’s only really Anthem that’s been a real stinker.

Recent BioWare games are not as good as the old classics. I think the frequent claim that they’re dead as a studio is overblown, though.

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Re: General Gaming News

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:51 am

Wrathbone wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:15 pm
Medicine Man wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:57 pm
Hasn't Casey Malone just returned to Bioware relatively recently?

Certainly lends credence to Dj's thoughts that all is not well at Bioware, who lets be honest haven't put out a good game in 10 years
Ignoring Dragon Age 2 and 3 and Mass Effect 2 and 3, all of which came out in the last decade and I have thoroughly enjoyed. ;) The Old Republic has a loyal following too, and Andromeda has its fans, so I’d argue it’s only really Anthem that’s been a real stinker.

Recent BioWare games are not as good as the old classics. I think the frequent claim that they’re dead as a studio is overblown, though.
I think the only game in that list that you could say didn't have issues upon release is ME2. You can discuss the various merits of each game but they are certainly following a downward path in quality. I think though it is more that they put out the broken mess that was Andromeda and then followed that up with an even bigger disaster with Anthem. I don't think it is wrong to say that the studio is on a precipitous decline, whether that means they are done or not depends, but judging by how things have followed similar trajectories with previous EA bought studios it's not looking good for them.

The constant churn in high level staff isn't a sign of a healthy studio either.

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Re: General Gaming News

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:00 am

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:51 am
I think the only game in that list that you could say didn't have issues upon release is ME2.
Having issues doesn't mean they're not good games though, which is the point I was disagreeing with.

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Re: General Gaming News

Post by Maturin » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:27 am

Yep, once Andromeda was patched it was fine. Enjoyed it just as much as ME1 & 2.

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Re: General Gaming News

Post by Mantis » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:32 am

Wasn't Andromeda largely developed by one of their lesser experienced smaller sub studios too?

Anthem is the big catastrophe. From the development hell it went through I wouldn't be surprised if it was solely responsible for the ongoing problems that the studio is facing with staff retention.

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Re: General Gaming News

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:48 am

My biggest concern with Bioware is that EA are going to force live service crap into Dragon Age 4, and if that's the direction they're heading then I can understand why old-guard staff are bailing. I hope it's not the case - you'd think they'd have learned some lessons from Anthem.

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Re: General Gaming News

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:53 pm

When I say issues, I'm not just talking about technical ones. I should probably not have put "on release" because it makes it sound like I think the games were fixed later when they weren't.

If the argument is that Andromeda is a good game then I think the bar of quality Bioware need to clear is pretty low.

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Re: General Gaming News

Post by Sly Boots » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:05 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:53 pm
When I say issues, I'm not just talking about technical ones. I should probably not have put "on release" because it makes it sound like I think the games were fixed later when they weren't.

If the argument is that Andromeda is a good game then I think the bar of quality Bioware need to clear is pretty low.
Andromeda had probably the best combat of the franchise, which actually accounts for quite a lot. However, it's let down by its story, characters (both friendly and the baddies/big villain) and the story planets being too large with too little of substance to do. I played it once and largely enjoyed it, due chiefly to point a, but any subsequent attempts to replay it have ended within a few hours of the start due to the rest.

It's very much a mixed bag for me.

Inquisition... it's a tough one. I actually quite liked the story and some of the companions, the home base is quite cool and some other touches. But the combat was largely a chore (rogue excepted, hands-down the most fun class to play) and again some of the open-world areas were far too large and too sparsely relevant, while the lack of effort put into non-main story quests was stark compared to Witcher 3, which came out shortly after.

None of their games bar Anthem is entirely without merit, but for me anyway they've been in decline since ME2, still my favourite of the franchise (come at me :P ) and sadly they've become a wait-and-see-reviews studio rather than the preorder-and-play-day-one studio they used to be.

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Re: General Gaming News

Post by Maturin » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:12 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:53 pm
If the argument is that Andromeda is a good game then I think the bar of quality Bioware need to clear is pretty low.
Likewise, if the argument is that Andromeda is a 'bad' game then I think Bioware will never have a chance of pleasing some people regardless.

I wouldn't call it either a great game or a bad game. But in its patched state, it has more than enough qualities within it to be fairly labelled 'good'. Games don't have to fit into extremes all the time.

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Re: General Gaming News

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:24 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:53 pm
When I say issues, I'm not just talking about technical ones. I should probably not have put "on release" because it makes it sound like I think the games were fixed later when they weren't.

If the argument is that Andromeda is a good game then I think the bar of quality Bioware need to clear is pretty low.
Yeah, I agree on the issues - it goes deeper than technical stuff. I just think many or most of Bioware's game this decade have been good, if flawed at times. Worth clarifying that I've tried and failed multiple times to get on with Andromeda, so I'm certainly not making any argument in its favour. ;)

I also think the earlier days of Bioware are glorified in a way that ignores many of the same issues that are leveled against current Bioware to denigrate them. Don't get me wrong, I love most of Bioware's earlier games, but they were far from perfect. Look at some examples from the previous decade:

- Neverwinter Nights had plenty of technical and story issues, and while it's not terrible it remains a clunky mess to play. That's not just compared to modern UIs; I remember being put off by how awkward it was to play back when it was released.

- Jade Empire had a loyal following, but it was no masterpiece. I find it pretty dull, which is surprising given the vibrant setting.

- Mass Effect, for all its brilliance, had a clunky combat system which was heavily criticised by many.


In terms of largely undisputed Bioware classics, what's left? BG1 and 2 (which were largely done by Black Isle), KOTOR and Dragon Age: Origins.

Again, I love Bioware and I recognise the problems it faces, but I think the perceptions of how good they used to be and how poor they are now are often exaggerated to the point where the downfall seems more pronounced than it actually is.

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Re: General Gaming News

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:47 pm

In terms of largely undisputed Bioware classics, what's left? BG1 and 2 (which were largely done by Black Isle), KOTOR and Dragon Age: Origins.
Black Isle were publishers on the BG series, Bioware did the development.

When you put those games in a list and then stack them up against ME3, DA:I, Andromeda and Anthem I think it's pretty clear that the developer has fallen a fair way.
Andromeda had probably the best combat of the franchise
I mean that's kind of damning the game with faint praise as it's never been that great compared to the rest of the third person shooter genre. :D

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Re: General Gaming News

Post by Wrathbone » Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:21 am

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:47 pm
In terms of largely undisputed Bioware classics, what's left? BG1 and 2 (which were largely done by Black Isle), KOTOR and Dragon Age: Origins.
Black Isle were publishers on the BG series, Bioware did the development.
Perhaps it’s unfair to suggest that Black Isle contributed more than Bioware, but Feargus Urquhart would probably not agree that they were ‘just’ the publishers. There was a lot of sharing of talent and resources over the development of the Infinity Engine games to the point where the firm distinction between developer and publisher doesn’t really fit.

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Re: General Gaming News

Post by Sly Boots » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:02 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:47 pm
In terms of largely undisputed Bioware classics, what's left? BG1 and 2 (which were largely done by Black Isle), KOTOR and Dragon Age: Origins.
Black Isle were publishers on the BG series, Bioware did the development.

When you put those games in a list and then stack them up against ME3, DA:I, Andromeda and Anthem I think it's pretty clear that the developer has fallen a fair way.
Andromeda had probably the best combat of the franchise
I mean that's kind of damning the game with faint praise as it's never been that great compared to the rest of the third person shooter genre. :D
It wasn't really my intent to defend it, as the rest of that paragraph hopefully made clear. As an aside it is interesting how the combat mechanics vs everything else have gradually exchanged positions over the course of the francise. ME1 had terrible combat but amazing everything else, ME3 had pretty neat combat but lacked in some of the story beats, then MEA had great combat but pretty ropey everything else.

Perhaps that's part of the reason why, for me, ME2 was the best in the series, when the combat was a vast improvement over 1 but Bioware's storytelling was still at a high level before it began its decline.

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