Need help diagnosing a system problem

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Raid
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Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by Raid » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:36 pm

I've had a couple of incidents now where my PC has just completely switched itself off. There was no indication that it was going to happen, but the power LED remained on both times, and I was unable to switch the PC back on until I'd flipped the switch on the PSU (the regular power button did nothing). Both times were when it was running Cyberpunk; the first was after the game had been running for a good few hours, today's was after about 30 minutes. Neither time happened while the game was displaying a particularly busy scene if that's of any use. I haven't had this problem in other software, although there have been a couple of occasions when the video output seemingly died shortly after the PC booted and was doing nothing more taxing than running Chrome, requiring a system reboot. There's nothing obvious in the Windows event logs, but I've only got the bare minimum of experience with those so there's possibly something I've missed.

My immediate guess is that it's the PSU - it's the oldest component in my PC, and it only just meets the requirements of my RTX 3080. It's a 7 year old 750W Corsair Builder Series CX750M 80PLUS Bronze Modular Power Supply (thankfully I still had the e-mail confirmation from when I bought it!). While Cyberpunk has to be the most graphically intensive title I've run with this system, I've not had the issue running DCS in VR which is also a massive system hog (though that's more CPU limited).

The secondary guess is that it's a thermal issue; my system does idle at above-average temperatures, but there was no indication of any thermal throttling happening (and MSI afterburner doesn't seem to show either the CPU or GPU getting above about 75c) on the occasions I've tested it. I don't think this is likely as surely I'd have had some other indication.

I can probably afford to replace the PSU, I just wanted some second opinions before I laid out £150. Any suggestions of diagnostics? I really don't want to force this to happen again in case it pops and takes other components that I definitely can't afford to replace.

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Re: Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by Maturin » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:51 pm

Is your 3080 running off single cables straight from the PSU? Some PSU's give you plenty of connectors but they're often split from a single output cable, which is bad for some modern GPUs.

I've heard of some people having issues with the 3080 when not using single PSU cables.

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Re: Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by Raid » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:02 pm

I have two separate cables from the PSU plugged into each of the 8-pin connectors rather than using both 8-pin connectors from a single cable. What I'm unsure of is whether my PSU has dual-rails or whether both cables are coming from a single rail. I suspect it's the latter, but the GPU has been giving me the performance I was expecting so I don't think that's the problem. I did a fair bit of reading on the 3080s before plonking down the money for one, and I think I'd be getting reduced performance if the supply was inadequate rather than it just powering down the entire system.

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Re: Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by elgaucho » Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:04 pm

It's been a long time since I've had to really troubleshoot a problem like this.

Thing is, if it was a drain issue, I'd expect the default behaviour to be a shutdown, and restart shortly thereafter, rather than a hard shut down with residual LEDs. At least that's what tends to happen with thermal issues, sometimes with a delay in starting back up.

I think you're right and that it's probably a PSU related issue. Have you checked for any diagnostic programs that would allow you to record power usage on your system? It would be interesting to check what the idle and load power usage is on a (normally stable) game, and the infer from that that Cyberpunk is probably pushing harder. What is the safe wattage before the PSU might struggle to keep a stable current? Stable to 700w maybe? or are they meant to be stable up to their absolute limit?

Have you tried turning down the graphics settings? Does that improve stability?

The other thing that can cause intermittent crashes or freezes are memory issues, but a power outage based on memory seems unlikely to me.
If it was the video card failing, i would expect the display output to fail, or a systme freeze derived from display issues rather than a power cut.
You also seem to have ruled out CPU heating based on your temp monitoring.

Ther other obvious question to ask is.... is your case dusty?
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Re: Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by Wrathbone » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:34 am

I could be way off the mark, but is your PC plugged into its own dedicated plug socket or is it in an extension with other things plugged in? If the latter, is there anything else sharing that extension that’s acting weird or might be causing power blips or surges?

My gut feeling from the description of the problem is that the PSU is momentarily not drawing enough power, which could be a fault with the PSU, or it could just be that the new GPU is pushing it to its limits and something external is occasionally preventing enough power from getting to the PSU.

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Re: Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by Raid » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:23 am

No, the inside of the case isn't dusty, but then every inlet is covered with a magnetic dust filter. I did clean the main inlet filter yesterday, and while there was definitely a fair bit of dust on it, it wasn't completely caked with the stuff.

I could try turning down graphics settings, but as the card does not appear to be struggling for performance, it's difficult to judge what I need to reduce. To be honest this doesn't really feel like a regular stability problem; I could understand if it were happening when the game engine was straining under the detail of the scene, but yesterday's happened in a very low-detail area just having a conversation with an NPC. It doesn't feel like the crash happened because of strain on the PC's processing ability, if that makes sense.

The machine is plugged into the same 4-way that I've always used. The monitor and speakers are connected to the same one, and they didn't show any sign of malfunction when the crashes happened.

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Re: Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by DjchunKfunK » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:55 am

If it's failing whilst gaming I would put that down to a power issue and if it is now also failing during just sitting in Windows then I would say the issue is getting worse. The fact that it is happening under load and also when not would suggest to me that the PSU is supplying irregular power. I had a friend who had a similar problem back in the summer last year with games crashing without any clear pattern and he left it too long and the PSU ended up killing the motherboard. I'd look at getting a new PSU asap. How old is the PSU btw and what make is it?

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Re: Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by Raid » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:37 am

The issue isn't happening while not under load; it's possible the video cutting out is related, but it's an entirely different set of symptoms. I only really have two data points here which isn't enough to fully draw conclusions, but I just don't want to force my machine to replicate the issue as I'm aware that a faulty PSU could potentially damage other components.

As I said above, it's a 7 year old Corsair CX750M, and it's been well used (there won't have been a great many days in those 7 years where it wasn't switched on for a few hours). When I started refreshing my hardware last year, it was certainly a consideration so I can't say I'd be surprised if it was on its way out and I'll likely be replacing it. I wouldn't mind some suggestions on a replacement; I think I'd best get an 800+W with multiple rails, preferably fully modular but I've got a decent bit of space to tuck unnecessary cables out of the way if it would be significantly cheaper to get a semi-modular.

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Re: Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by DjchunKfunK » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:22 pm

Raid wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:37 am
The issue isn't happening while not under load; it's possible the video cutting out is related, but it's an entirely different set of symptoms. I only really have two data points here which isn't enough to fully draw conclusions, but I just don't want to force my machine to replicate the issue as I'm aware that a faulty PSU could potentially damage other components.

As I said above, it's a 7 year old Corsair CX750M, and it's been well used (there won't have been a great many days in those 7 years where it wasn't switched on for a few hours). When I started refreshing my hardware last year, it was certainly a consideration so I can't say I'd be surprised if it was on its way out and I'll likely be replacing it. I wouldn't mind some suggestions on a replacement; I think I'd best get an 800+W with multiple rails, preferably fully modular but I've got a decent bit of space to tuck unnecessary cables out of the way if it would be significantly cheaper to get a semi-modular.
The video has been cutting out in Windows though you said?

7 years is not terribly old, Corsair warranties last for about that long so they are expected to go a bit longer but you are pushing it to the limit with your new graphics card so it could have overstressed it and caused something to fail.

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Re: Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by Raid » Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:13 pm

And as I said I'm not connecting the video cutting out to the entire machine switching itself off as they happen under entirely different circumstances with entirely different effects. I'm not saying they're definitely not connected, but I don't have any evidence that they are.

I gave my PC a workout with the only other GPU-heavy title I own, Borderlands 3. I had Afterburner running a GPU and CPU temperature graph the whole time, and while the GPU did hit 82 which is higher than I'd like, it was running pretty consistently at around the 75-80 mark for extended periods with no issues. I therefore doubt this is a thermal problem, so the PSU is definitely the most likely culprit.

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Re: Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by Snowy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:48 am

As a first step in the diagnosis process Raid I would suggest replace the PSU. As you rightly say, should it go belly up it could damage/wreck other parts of your system and as you are running a RTX3080 safe to assume that would be a disaster. Suggest also pausing Cyberpunk until you have replaced it.

In terms of what level of grunt to get, I have no idea but I always buy the next one up to what I need. Corsair are rock-solid when it comes to PSUs.
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Re: Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by Raid » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:56 am

I've actually barely touched Cyberpunk since that first incident (which was just after Christmas) for exactly this reason.

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Re: Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by Drarok » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:00 am

I've used this PSU calculator before, seems pretty thorough: https://outervision.com/power-supply-calculator
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Re: Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:32 am

You can put your components into PC Partpicker and it will tell you how much power it uses.

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Re: Need help diagnosing a system problem

Post by Pew-Pew » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:31 pm

Raid wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:37 am
The issue isn't happening while not under load; it's possible the video cutting out is related, but it's an entirely different set of symptoms. I only really have two data points here which isn't enough to fully draw conclusions, but I just don't want to force my machine to replicate the issue as I'm aware that a faulty PSU could potentially damage other components.

As I said above, it's a 7 year old Corsair CX750M, and it's been well used (there won't have been a great many days in those 7 years where it wasn't switched on for a few hours). When I started refreshing my hardware last year, it was certainly a consideration so I can't say I'd be surprised if it was on its way out and I'll likely be replacing it. I wouldn't mind some suggestions on a replacement; I think I'd best get an 800+W with multiple rails, preferably fully modular but I've got a decent bit of space to tuck unnecessary cables out of the way if it would be significantly cheaper to get a semi-modular.
If you want to replace it, their RM750x or RM850x could be a good shout. I just put one in my new build and I'm loving the silent operation (the fan doesn't turn on at lower loads, and is not really audible at higher loads).

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