The elephant in the room - Brexit

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Achtung Englander
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The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:56 pm



After a 4 month marathon I finished this book by Yanis Varoufakis:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Adults-Room-Ba ... n+the+room

The thing that surprised me the most is how this became such as huge fuck up. In the book you get a very good insight into the machinations of the EU (as well as the IMF). I can wholly sympathise with the huge dilemma TM has had these last 2 years. To get the best for the UK but at the same time - leave. The EU has become a snake of an organisation. It delivered huge economic growth for some at the major expense of others (Southern Europe). It is a political organisation with the ultimate goal of creating a Federal Europe with little or no democratic agenda. The Euro is a joke of a currency - no central bond supporting it, one monetary policy but with 19 differing fiscal policies #-o - fuck what ??,......anyway this bill will fail at the Commons, which means it will either trigger a new leadership challenge or a general election (the fact is no one knows).

What a complete shambles. Personally I think we should just come out and go onto WTO rules and visas for travel (unless negotiated otherwise) and if people get poorer for it than that is price we should all collectively pay for deciding to leave a trading bloc. IMO it is time that people began to take responsibility for their actions, whether that brings ill or fortune. So people who voted to leave and expect to be better off are in for a surprise. Similarly people who voted to remain and cry when they lose should get over themselves. 30 million people voted and the remainers lost.
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DjchunKfunK
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by DjchunKfunK » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:29 pm

Personally I think we should just come out and go onto WTO rules and visas for travel (unless negotiated otherwise) and if people get poorer for it than that is price we should all collectively pay for deciding to leave a trading bloc.
You realise that there are plenty of people who voted to stay who would be adversely effected by this? The negotiations have been a right mess but I don't think the correct thing to do is say "screw it".

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:20 pm

Brexit is simultaneously the most important and least interesting news topic.

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:30 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:29 pm
Personally I think we should just come out and go onto WTO rules and visas for travel (unless negotiated otherwise) and if people get poorer for it than that is price we should all collectively pay for deciding to leave a trading bloc.
You realise that there are plenty of people who voted to stay who would be adversely effected by this? The negotiations have been a right mess but I don't think the correct thing to do is say "screw it".
As I said we need to have a collective responsibility over this. Some people will win and some will lose whatever the decision. I do not think we should say screw it and leave but if we wanted free trade - we had that and we rejected it. The EU comes with one set of rule book and they will not budge or accommodate. This was perfectly clear during the referendum. I voted remain but the out people won - so let's leave and if I become poorer for it, so be it, but lets just get on with it.
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Wrathbone
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Wrathbone » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:40 pm

Achtung Englander wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:56 pm
people who voted to remain and cry when they lose should get over themselves.
This argument infuriates me more than I wish to admit. One MP (I forget who) during May's commons slaughter on Thursday raised a very pertinent point: a second referendum would not be a repeat of the first, because the first was based on false promises, whereas the second would be based on information. Even the staunchest leave voters are now admitting that there were things promised by the Leave campaign that have now been demonstrated to be impossible. There is no good outlook to any form of Brexit, so why the fuck should I 'get over' myself for wanting a second public opinion on whether everyone still thinks this is a good idea?

Your attitude of just letting it go ahead even though you apparently think it will be detrimental is bewildering to me. If you come to a fork in the road and the path you choose leads you into hell, what rational person keeps ploughing ahead on the basis that the decision has already been made?

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by DjchunKfunK » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:09 pm

This was perfectly clear during the referendum.
Demonstrably not true as has been shown since the end of the referendum. The referendum was full of misinformation and lies there was very little idea about what voting leave would really mean.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Strudel » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:32 am

Yeah, I don't buy the notion that "people voted for it so it must be done" any more, not with the litany of evidence about how one side broke the law throughout the referendum and the huge pile of lies that were spun. I think it has much greater consequence if people can steal a vote and get away with no real punishment; what's to stop them doing it for other elections in the future if there's no real comeuppance?

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:40 am

And this is why we should never have binary choice referendums. I am not against a second referendum as I would prefer we remain and get on with our lives. So now the argument to remain is to fight for a second vote, which we may never get and even if we do get it there is a chance the vote will still be to leave. Also it doesn't also speak truths about what an insidious organisation the EU really is. Keep on voting until we win. They did that in Ireland and Belgium when both countries rejected clauses in the EU with referendums but had to go back to the polls until the "correct" vote won. So democracy is only as good so long as the right people win.

On a side note about this - Corbyn has zero scruples. He now says he will give a second referendum a possibility after first stating he will honour the 1st referendum. He will say anything to anyone to get a Labour vote. Their "6 point" plan is fucking stupid given the past 2 years with the EU being completely intransigent. I mean are they doing the 3 monkeys - see no evil, hear no evil, say no evil or are they that stupid.

If the EU wanted a "deal" we would have a deal. They do not want a deal. No deal if it means bending any of their constitutional rules. They have a rule book - either you are in or you are out. It is that simple. Or you pay to be part of a Customs Union but that comes with huge limitations and you must follow EU guidelines but what complicates it for us is the added fuck up of DUP who want to be British, but they share a border with an EU country whilst honouring the Good Friday agreement, meaning a hard border is suicidal for that area. What a complete fucking mess. That is before we get to the hypocrisy of treating Ulster differently to Wales and Scotland.

IMO the EU itself is on borrowed time as one only has to look as Hungary, Italy, Austria, Germany and France to see the tide turn

As I write this I realise that a hard brexit (what I stated yesterday) is just as impossible as a soft brexit. I am coming to the conclusion we are stuck in this quagmire. No resolution is a good one.
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Strudel
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Strudel » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:01 pm

I'm not sure if the EU not wanting to bend over backwards just for the UK is supposed to be a negative in your comment, but I certainly don't see it that way. They were very clear from the outset. We can't decide to leave a club and then complain that the club won't change all their rules to make our lives easier. The whole point of the EU is for a consistent set of rules across all members and for dealing with non-members. The fact that the UK has shot itself in the foot by creating an impossible situation of wanting to be outside the EU but get all the benefits of the EU is not their problem, it's ours.

The EU has many problems, and no one doubts that but the Brexit "negotiation" has gone entirely as predicted. The EU state their terms (the terms we were also stating to non-members beforehand) which you have to agree to to gain access to the club. We say we want different terms. They say no these are our terms. We have a choice to either accept them or take a hike.

I'm not sure why you think the EU is on borrowed time; more Europeans like the EU than dislike it (see here ) and the only country in European with fewer than 50% of the population believing they benefit from the EU is Italy. Most Europeans identify as European above identifying with their nationality. There are plenty of things to fix within the EU still, but it generally does what it does better than most national governments.

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:04 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:09 pm
This was perfectly clear during the referendum.
Demonstrably not true as has been shown since the end of the referendum. The referendum was full of misinformation and lies there was very little idea about what voting leave would really mean.
for the Remain campaign yes but the EU have stated from day 1 that leave means leave and was during the run up to the vote
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Wrathbone
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:09 pm

Achtung Englander wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:40 am
On a side note about this - Corbyn has zero scruples. He now says he will give a second referendum a possibility after first stating he will honour the 1st referendum. He will say anything to anyone to get a Labour vote.
Or, you know, maybe he's adapting to the situation? Unlike strong and stable May who refuses to budge an inch no matter what the consequences.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:11 pm

Strudel wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:01 pm
I'm not sure if the EU not wanting to bend over backwards just for the UK is supposed to be a negative in your comment,
It isn't - I was stating facts on the ground just you are and we are in agreement on that one. The EU, for all its faults, has always stuck to its guns regardless and this is the very reason what them so strong will also be what will be their ultimate downfall (in this current state). Sticking your head in the sand and pretending the resurgence of the hard right is not happening (mostly due to blaming everything on immigration) is stupid. We are not even in a recession and the right is gaining power. Just wait until the next financial crash. People then will want to point and blame and after seeing what happened to Greece and Spain with youth unemployment, trust me there will be less European brotherly love.

Personally I believe free movement of labour will be scrapped in the next decade.
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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:15 pm

Wrathbone wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:09 pm
Achtung Englander wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:40 am
On a side note about this - Corbyn has zero scruples. He now says he will give a second referendum a possibility after first stating he will honour the 1st referendum. He will say anything to anyone to get a Labour vote.
Or, you know, maybe he's adapting to the situation? Unlike strong and stable May who refuses to budge an inch no matter what the consequences.
hmm..maybe
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Raid » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:18 pm

Wrathbone wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:09 pm
Achtung Englander wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:40 am
On a side note about this - Corbyn has zero scruples. He now says he will give a second referendum a possibility after first stating he will honour the 1st referendum. He will say anything to anyone to get a Labour vote.
Or, you know, maybe he's adapting to the situation? Unlike strong and stable May who refuses to budge an inch no matter what the consequences.
Indeed. There's mounting evidence that if repeated, the vote would now go the other way. Call me old fashioned, but I thought a politician wanting to represent the desires of the population (even if it conflicts with their own principles) was supposed to be a good thing.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:22 pm

As much as I would like Labour to declare themselves anti-Brexit, it would be political suicide thanks to the anti-immigrant message that right wingers in politics have been stirring up for the last decade. They have no power to force an election or influence the negotiations so their stance isn't exactly that important right now anyway. They're simply keeping options open and letting the conservatives ruin themselves over the issue.
Achtung Englander wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:04 pm
DjchunKfunK wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:09 pm
This was perfectly clear during the referendum.
Demonstrably not true as has been shown since the end of the referendum. The referendum was full of misinformation and lies there was very little idea about what voting leave would really mean.
for the Remain campaign yes but the EU have stated from day 1 that leave means leave and was during the run up to the vote
Except leaving is a lot more complex when you consider the various options available when we're out. Norway, Canada, WTO, customs union, single market. Most people don't even fully understand what half these things are even now.

Nigel Farage was on TV during the campaign saying 'nobody is suggesting we leave the customs union'. Even the face of the leave campaign didn't have a coherent message because he is simply a populist wanker.

European cooperation is only ever going to become more crucial both for our national economy and influence on the world stage. Brexit is nothing more than a stupid act of self sabtoage which should border on an act of treason for those who are deliberately spreading lies to further their own agendas. This governments consistent bullying of immigrants and playing to the populist theme that we need to get rid of European immigrants is downright shameful and highlights all the worst things about being British.

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