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Tommy
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:59 pm

Mantis wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:31 pm
The level of hate you seem to have for the guy is rather puzzling. I mean, it kind of speaks volumes that you only responded to that part of my post and ignored the rest.

In your opinion, are those traits I listed not something that a leader should display?
It doesn't speak volumes at all given the point I was making was only coincidentally linked to Corbyn. Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they're necessarily blinkered, despite how realstic you might feel your opinion is. Again, I could just as easily say you're blinkered (and you'll say you're not because you have a relastic view and so forth). For example, I could also say it speaks volumes that you misquoted me. I said he showed little to no traits of a leader of even a mediocre level. But that's not important.

Re. the rest of your post, I don't disagree with a whole lot. A leader should show resilience and he's shown that. A Labour leader should be angry and I don't doubt his anger (at times). To say Blair glossed over everything with a cheesy grin at the dispatch box isn't accurate, but I agree Corbyn should be angry. A leader absolutely has to be charismatic and no, it isn't style over substance. I'd be curious to know more about his communications team and whoever managed the 2017 GE campaign.

The final paragraph I agree with too. But therein lies a problem. It's not good enough to say it's everyone else's fault. This has been a constant problem with people on the left and I've seen it from party officials, members, commentators...just about everyone. It's frustrating and it is misdirected anger to a degree but given the damage the Conservatives have done and their incompetence he should have TM booked in for a seven shades of shit removal every week at PMQs, couple of times through the week and twice on a fucking Sunday and for whatever reason it isn't translating. Part of his job is to direct that anger. And he's improved at it, but not enough. I would say it's far more infuriating that Labour aren't in a position to help those the Conservatives are destroying.

As an aside, I saw somebody on Twitter earlier this week lauding Corbyn's mobilisation, citing the 2017 General Election. Apparently people had stopped caring about politics until Corbyn. That really got under my skin. We're applauding well-contested losses now? Is this how low the bar is?

More generally, there's a dearth of talent across the parties. I think Starmer is a viable alternative but after him, I'm unsure who I'd want as a replacement anyway. Brexit's dominance of the news means I probably know just as much about their MPs as I do Labour now.

TLDR; I want Labour to be in government as much as anyone and if it comes across like I hate Corbyn it's because I think he's a huge part of the problem. Whether or not it's his fault is another point. Now can we put the Corbyn thing to bed? We have a shit draft Brexit deal!

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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:22 pm

No traits at all, mediocre level; my point stands regardless that I think he has a number of very positive traits and is actually very strong in some areas. I think you're totally underestimating the level that things have been stacked against him. Call it what you want, media bias, establishment goons, Blairites, Tory smears; whatever. It just seemed to me like you were blaming him for a lot of things that aren't necessarily directly his fault.

Labour aren't in a position to help anyone because they aren't in Government. They could be destroying the Tories in the polls and nothing would change, Theresa May has the numbers she needs to limp on. And yes, I know that's because Corbyn lost at the last election.

If there were a better choice for Labour leader I would endorse them instead, but you're right, there isn't anybody waiting in the wings who looks like a credible enough candidate. The simple fact is that it is going to take a monolithic character to undo 40 years of Neo-Liberal culture. Corbyn is not that person, but he has prompted a shift in the agenda somewhat.

Anyway, back to Brexit.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:47 pm

Fair enough. We're probably not so far apart. Perhaps you are more reasonable than I am.

I haven't had time to look over the Brexit agreements thus far as I'm during exam season. From reading a quick summary I can't fathom how it gets through parliament. May thanking IDS, only for him to criticise the deal teeters fairly close to a 10 on the Raab scale.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:30 am

Watch from 8 mins in



This is the problem I have with Corbyn and his blind followers. She wants us to leave the common market and also invest up to 20% of the GDP in green economies at the same time re-nationalise the utility companies but totally failed to answer how much this would cost and from where these hundreds of billions of extra money would be coming from. Pipe dreams and that is very dangerous when talking about national economies and fiscal planning. The fact she used China, of all countries, as her role model is utterly laughable. Today China is the biggest world polluter, greater than the US, suppresses its people to the point it is now a criminal offence to even mention Winnie The Poo, steals intellectual property with Govt help and uses subsidies to destroy global market prices.

She was utterly out of her depth and these are the people we are supposed to trust our future to. I think Andrew Neil brought her on for a laugh (at her expense)

Going back to Brexit never in my lifetime have I known politics to be completely rudderless and no one knowing anything about the direction we are going. This is beyond a joke, it is actually a bit scary now.
Games playing : Bioshock (Remastered) / Total War Britannia / Dirt 4

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by DjchunKfunK » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:21 am

See this is the problem, just because someone is a supporter of Corbyn doesn't mean they speak for Corbyn. As far as I can tell Grace Blakely is an economist who has left views and is on the program explaining what she thinks the left should do not what Corbyn is going to do. It's also laughable to see Johnson, a politician who ducked the leadership of the Labour party multiple times, sniping from the sidelines. Additionally its the same old nonsense about Corbyn wanting to go back to the old days and the old left ideas and Portilo and Johnson are able to rubbish Blakely's opinions without giving an alternative.

EDIT: Watched the whole thing now and it's basically three people ganging up on one person and rubbishing their ideas without giving a reason why out than 'Socialism is bad'. The China example is taking their economic ideas only, it's not saying we copy the Chinese wholesale. The fact that even Johnson wont admit to the fact that the EU is not a socialist enterprise shows how far some in the Labour party have moved to the right.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:37 am

OK. Lets wait for the party manifestos
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Tommy
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:44 am

Corbyn keen to debate Brexit with May.

Interesting. I think he can win. My only concern is that I fear what I consider a win for Labour and on Brexit could differ to what he feels is a win. Nevertheless, wouldn’t surprise me if May just ignored him, claims he was never really interested and it never happens.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Jez » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:48 am

Neither of them are particularly "debatey" people. May especially. Can't see any form of head to head debate on this or any subject between them.
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:55 am

Jez wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:48 am
Neither of them are particularly "debatey" people. May especially. Can't see any form of head to head debate on this or any subject between them.
Corbyn would be right to seize the chance (or call her bluff, whichever way you look at it).

I wonder though how the best way to approach it is. Corbyn can't really propose an alternative Labour plan for Brexit, as it's unlikely he'll get a chance to implement it. I'm also not confident there is one, and the time for it has passed. The way to effect change is to back No Deal or Remain. One's electoral suicide, and the other is quite openly against what he stands for.

It might be a good idea for May to take it too, before Sturgeon et al. build momentum behind their involvement. She stands a half decent chance against Corbyn, but you would feel Sturgeon, Cable etc. might be a lot for her to handle.

At least they've stuck a movie on while we're on the cross.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Jez » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:08 pm

Agreed. Stuegeon and cable would be more formidable opponents. As you say though no one else has a plan that can be seen as better and still fulfil the vote. I honestly think the no deal might be better now. The withdrawal agreement is laced with pitfalls at every line.
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:25 pm

No deal would be pretty catastrophic.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:25 pm

There is no scenario where No Deal would be the better option. We're talking full on economic crisis if we crash out to WTO rules, all the details are out there as to what the knock on effects would be.

People will never be happy with whatever result we get from this because people didn't even know exactly what terms they were voting for in the first place. Labour policy with its six tests at the moment is only a fraction away from admitting that they just want to stay in, but that would hurt them massively in their heartlands because so many of them are Leave areas. The idea that we could pass the six tests, essentially get a Norway style deal and still retain influence over EU policy isn't really remotely feasible though; they're clearly currently just buying time to see what May makes of it all, because nailing their colours to the mast at this stage will hurt them more than help as it'll put all the public focus on Labour when in reality their influence over the current negotiation is diddly squat anyway.

I think it's going to be a toss up between two outcomes now. Either enough Labour MPs rebel against the whip and support May's plan so she manages to get the deal through parliament, because they don't want to be seen as the MPs who voted down a deal and crashed us out of Europe. Or May will lose the vote in December and potentially bring the whole government down as a result, leading to an election. The question is whether Labour really do want to inherit this mess off her.

I'm not convinced that a Labour government would have a decent solution to the problem either, because I'm pretty certain now that there isn't a solution. The toxicity behind this entire ordeal has broken this country, completely and utterly split in half.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:05 pm

Mantis wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:25 pm
There is no scenario where No Deal would be the better option. We're talking full on economic crisis if we crash out to WTO rules, all the details are out there as to what the knock on effects would be.

People will never be happy with whatever result we get from this because people didn't even know exactly what terms they were voting for in the first place. Labour policy with its six tests at the moment is only a fraction away from admitting that they just want to stay in, but that would hurt them massively in their heartlands because so many of them are Leave areas. The idea that we could pass the six tests, essentially get a Norway style deal and still retain influence over EU policy isn't really remotely feasible though; they're clearly currently just buying time to see what May makes of it all, because nailing their colours to the mast at this stage will hurt them more than help as it'll put all the public focus on Labour when in reality their influence over the current negotiation is diddly squat anyway.

I think it's going to be a toss up between two outcomes now. Either enough Labour MPs rebel against the whip and support May's plan so she manages to get the deal through parliament, because they don't want to be seen as the MPs who voted down a deal and crashed us out of Europe. Or May will lose the vote in December and potentially bring the whole government down as a result, leading to an election. The question is whether Labour really do want to inherit this mess off her.

I'm not convinced that a Labour government would have a decent solution to the problem either, because I'm pretty certain now that there isn't a solution. The toxicity behind this entire ordeal has broken this country, completely and utterly split in half.
Definitely. No deal isn't an option. The scariest thing I've read about no deal was that we could run out of clean drinking water. The validity of the claim could be questionable but come on. Clean fucking drinking water?!

The only way to avoid it all is obviously remain, which only comes about through a second vote. The only two realistic ways that comes about is if May falls on her sword and offers it in a second referendum, or if there's a climbdown and full support from the Shadow Cabinet, and an election. Not to bang the Corbyn drum again, but even winning that is an uphill battle. The domestic backlash of a betrayal of the Brexit voters is far easier to deal with than the consequences of no deal.

At this point, I have absolutely no idea what will happen.

EDIT: Also, you're right. Whoever resides over the upcoming period is likely to lose the confidence of some voters forever. And it would likely affect Labour far worse than the Conservatives (Cleaning up Labour's mess once again, or something to that effect. Can hear it now).

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Wrathbone » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:17 am

Apparently May has challenged Corbyn to a debate, which is ballsy considering her debating technique is to repeat three or four soundbytes like a pull-string doll without answering any questions. I'd play a drinking game where I drink every time she says "I believe this is the best deal for Britain" or "the people of Britain just want us to get on with it", but I'd have liver failure.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Raid » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:32 am

I thought May's technique was to send Amber Rudd in her place. You know, the home secretary she threw under a bus to take the blame for incompetence shown during the Windrush scandal, waited six months, and then invited back to government two weeks ago once nobody was looking.

This is actually kinda fascinating. We know May is not the best debater, and she's presumably not going to have two thirds of the country's media spinning for her this time around, because the deal she's pushing for won't allow their moguls to make terrific sums of money. There's a good possibility that she'll be ripped to shreds, so why is she the one challenging Corbyn?

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