The Absolute State Of It - It's The UK Politics Thread!

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:08 pm

Raid wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:57 am
I would understand if people didn't want to discuss Brexit on a gaming forum. It's far more contentious an issue than I think we're used to discussing here, and even though I don't think anyone's been unreasonable in this thread, I don't think it's possible to have political discussions where anyone's opinion changes any more.

I think I'll step out of this thread too. I don't find any joy in discussing Brexit, in fact if anything talking about it just makes me feel worse.
not true. I always change my mind if the argument presented to me makes sense at that time. I moved from Remain to Leave. Also why cannot we talk about it like adults. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I enjoy listening to sides that I am uncomfortable with. Dialogue is important and listening to others is just as important otherwise you end up in a bubble that echoes your own opinions resulting with ignorance and misinformation
Last edited by Achtung Englander on Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tommy
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:11 pm

Achtung Englander wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:08 pm
Raid wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:57 am
I would understand if people didn't want to discuss Brexit on a gaming forum. It's far more contentious an issue than I think we're used to discussing here, and even though I don't think anyone's been unreasonable in this thread, I don't think it's possible to have political discussions where anyone's opinion changes any more.

I think I'll step out of this thread too. I don't find any joy in discussing Brexit, in fact if anything talking about it just makes me feel worse.
not true. I always change my mind if the argument presented to me makes sense at that time. I moved from Remain to Leave.
Out of curiousity (and to drive what is likely to be an almost abandoned thread back to topic), what was it that made you change your mind? The vote?

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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:25 pm

I won't be closing the thread, this is an open forum where people are free to discuss and potentially strongly disagree with each others opinions. I'm not going to censor what can be discussed just because some people find the subject contentious and dislike the fact that we don't all agree on something; particularly when the level of discussion is overall pretty cordial. This is a very complicated and nuanced subject and if you don't like the detailed points of view being exchanged then I can only suggest that you avoid reading the thread.

Politics is my passion that I've studied for years, I enjoy reading strongly opposed views.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Raid » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:32 pm

Achtung Englander wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:08 pm
not true.
Sorry, I shouldn't have used such definite language; obviously there are going to be some people that openly listen to debate, but it seems quite rare to me. Perhaps it's just years of reddit use that have soured me to the experience. Yes, dialogue is important, but most political debate I've seen in the last few years hasn't been a dialogue, it's been two sides yelling at each other through megaphones refusing to budge an inch regardless of how much logic is applied.

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:30 pm

that attitude is utterly disgraceful. No one has full knowledge of facts and given politics is a social science, no one is right all the time or even, dare I say, most of the time. As humans, language is the best invention ever created and if we just stop talking in case we do not want to hear something we disagree with, how on earth are minds changed for the better. People who closest themselves and argue the loudest generally have the least to say, imo.

I changed my mind because I read more about the EU than since my days at Uni, over 20 years ago. The fact is I am pro-European, especially given the thousands of years Europeans have been killing each other, but of late the EU, imo, is doing more damage than good. After the 2008 crash it left the PIGS to rot resulting with a lost generation. It is wholly undemocratic. It is doing nothing to address the fact that Europe is turning to the right. It is a big ship that has a tiny rudder and the crew are either sitting happy on their big pension or pissed (in some cases literally).

Brexit was inevitable as is the disintegration of the EU as we know it. Trying to fix an organisation that is only interested in getting bigger instead of getting smarter is a waste of time.

The Tories are most likely to split because of Europe. If we did not have a referendum, UKIP would have sucked the Tory vote dry leading to a Labour victory. No matter how I see this the biggest beneficiary of all this is Labour and than Scotland (Corbyn will give them the Vote and they will vote leave in the moronic idea they can rejoin the EU with no formal currency or monetary independence)
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:50 pm

Got any links to material that made you change your mind on the EU, or any books you've read? I'd be interested in seeing the details.

Tusk has said today that there will be no more negotiating for deals, our options now are May's deal, No Deal crash out or No Brexit. This puts everything in Labour's hands essentially. Anti-EU Tories will definitely vote against May now knowing that they can get the Hard Brexit they dream of, so May will be relying on opposition support to save the deal.

The question is how will Labour play this hand. If they vote it down and can't force an election or second referendum then May will crash us out and cause a catastrophe. Despite the fact that this whole thing is the Tories doing, Labour will be blamed for that by the media spinning everything. Huge risk that could damage Labour electorally for a very long time.

Option two is vote the deal down, force an election or second referendum and campaign on the basis of cancelling Brexit entirely. My preferred option. Could hurt them big time in their heartlands but they'd also win a lot of support from non-traditional Labour voters.

Option three is they buckle and don't want either of the two risky options, vote the deal through and we end up leaving on the negotiated terms and enjoy all the consequences that come with it.

December is going to be interesting. Of course, it could wind up turning into something somewhere between any of those outcomes. Who knows.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:50 pm

Achtung Englander wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:30 pm
that attitude is utterly disgraceful. No one has full knowledge of facts and given politics is a social science, no one is right all the time or even, dare I say, most of the time. As humans, language is the best invention ever created and if we just stop talking in case we do not want to hear something we disagree with, how on earth are minds changed for the better. People who closest themselves and argue the loudest generally have the least to say, imo.

I changed my mind because I read more about the EU than since my days at Uni, over 20 years ago. The fact is I am pro-European, especially given the thousands of years Europeans have been killing each other, but of late the EU, imo, is doing more damage than good. After the 2008 crash it left the PIGS to rot resulting with a lost generation. It is wholly undemocratic. It is doing nothing to address the fact that Europe is turning to the right. It is a big ship that has a tiny rudder and the crew are either sitting happy on their big pension or pissed (in some cases literally).


Brexit was inevitable as is the disintegration of the EU as we know it. Trying to fix an organisation that is only interested in getting bigger instead of getting smarter is a waste of time.

The Tories are most likely to split because of Europe. If we did not have a referendum, UKIP would have sucked the Tory vote dry leading to a Labour victory. No matter how I see this the biggest beneficiary of all this is Labour and than Scotland (Corbyn will give them the Vote and they will vote leave in the moronic idea they can rejoin the EU with no formal currency or monetary independence)
I've got exams at the beginning of next week, so to save myself time I've underlined what I agree with and emboldened that I don't. I'll get round to saying why. :lol:

The idea that UKIP take votes from the Conservatives is a falsehood by the way. As I found out to my cost when, having lost the election, I had two days to re-write giant swathes of my dissertation in 2015.

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:54 pm

I subscribed to Readly (which is brilliant btw !!!) so I read a lot of politics - The Week, Spectator, Newsweek and Time. I tried the National Review and wholly shit it was like reading a magazine caught in a timeloop from a Nazi rally

I also read this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Adults-Room-Ba ... varoufakis

I watched several YouTube videos from both right and left wing pundits and listened to LBC sometimes (although that can be a real head fuck, an hour is the most I can do)
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:59 pm

Achtung Englander wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:54 pm
I subscribed to Readly (which is brilliant btw !!!) so I read a lot of politics - The Week, Spectator, Newsweek and Time. I tried the National Review and wholly shit it was like reading a magazine caught in a timeloop from a Nazi rally

I also read this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Adults-Room-Ba ... varoufakis

I watched several YouTube videos from both right and left wing pundits and listened to LBC sometimes (although that can be a real head fuck, an hour is the most I can do)
I hadn't heard of that until you mentioned it there. Looks excellent, might give it a whirl.

I tend to get a lot of my coverage from Financial Times, Guardian and Telegraph.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:32 pm

Tommy wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:59 pm
I tend to get a lot of my coverage from Financial Times, Guardian and Telegraph.
Likewise, but also the Independent because I find it easier to gauge matters when I read each perspective. FT and Telegraph are to the right, Guardian is kind of centre right or centre left depending on who they're talking about and the Indie is pretty firmly on the left. To boil it down to antiquated simple terms at least.

I also enjoying reading comments on Brexit articles on the Daily Mail and Express from time to time because I find it hilarious seeing how batshit crazy some people are.

Just ordered a copy of Varoufakis' book. Been meaning to read it for a while after picking up his previous book earlier this year.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:14 pm

Mantis wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:32 pm
Tommy wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:59 pm
I tend to get a lot of my coverage from Financial Times, Guardian and Telegraph.
Likewise, but also the Independent because I find it easier to gauge matters when I read each perspective. FT and Telegraph are to the right, Guardian is kind of centre right or centre left depending on who they're talking about and the Indie is pretty firmly on the left. To boil it down to antiquated simple terms at least.

I also enjoying reading comments on Brexit articles on the Daily Mail and Express from time to time because I find it hilarious seeing how batshit crazy some people are.

Just ordered a copy of Varoufakis' book. Been meaning to read it for a while after picking up his previous book earlier this year.
I just think the Independent is toss. Went drastically downhill. I don't read The Guardian much either now either. I'm unsure why, I just find the variety of articles and features on the FT more interesting.

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:35 pm

Mantis I would have sent you my copy as I am not going to reread it. It's in very good nick if you still want it. The first 100 pages is just a superb piece of prose

I read the Guardian now. Gave up on the independent, that online paper just completely lost its way

Although my leanings are to the right I want to read a left wing agenda paper to keep things in perspective. Again it's all about coming out of your bubble
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:43 pm

Don't know if it's of any use to anyone but there's a good addon out there that'll offer better access to articles on some websites. Doesn't eliminate paywalls entirely but really helps to access a range of papers rather than having to focus on just the one free outlet.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:47 pm

Don''t feel the need to share the name of the add-on or anything. -_-
Achtung Englander wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:35 pm
Mantis I would have sent you my copy as I am not going to reread it. It's in very good nick if you still want it. The first 100 pages is just a superb piece of prose
Cheers for the offer dude but I only just saw the message and Amazon being the beasts they are have already dispatched it to me for delivery tomorrow. It was only a fiver for the paperback edition anyway.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:52 pm

Mantis wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:47 pm
Don''t feel the need to share the name of the add-on or anything. -_-
Achtung Englander wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:35 pm
Mantis I would have sent you my copy as I am not going to reread it. It's in very good nick if you still want it. The first 100 pages is just a superb piece of prose
Cheers for the offer dude but I only just saw the message and Amazon being the beasts they are have already dispatched it to me for delivery tomorrow. It was only a fiver for the paperback edition anyway.
I wasn't sure whether it might be on dodgy grounds. I'm merely a guest here, you're the gatekeeper sir.

It's no huge secret either to be honest. It's called Anti-Paywall :lol: . I find it'll get you (or would, been exclusively FT for the last week or so) FT, Telegraph, the Times sometimes (weirdly). I've been playing with New Statesman but theirs seems fairly good. I'll play about with it next week.

Tbh I only wanted it for FT. My Uni subscription was taken from me and work don't get one. I'm only claiming what I feel I'm due!

https://github.com/nextgens/anti-paywall

EDIT: For anybody who doesn't usually look at FT I'd strongly recommend giving it a shot. Their 'Big Reads' are usually superb.

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