The Absolute State Of It - It's The UK Politics Thread!

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Strudel
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Strudel » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:10 am

Awesome, that's really useful, thanks!

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Pew-Pew
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Pew-Pew » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:14 pm

Opinion of someone who is absolutely not that well informed about politics etc:

I think Brexit is silly. The leave campaign was based around a variety of promises that weren't even all agreed upon, because there were too many different positions on what was desirable/realistic after Brexit. Very few of them seemed to be based on anything tangible/factual that could be predicted with a high level of confidence. I honestly don't care about immigration etc, as I think it can be a great thing. Lots of people come from outside the EU anyway. I also don't know much about how 'undemocratic' it actually is.

But, if I am presented with a choice of:

- status quo, which is going reasonably well, allows free trade and lets me to move around Europe freely etc, or:

- change the status quo for some unknown situation, which the majority of experts seem to think will be a bad idea (at least in the next few years). Put barriers in the way of my movement

Then there is obviously no choice at all, I will just pick the status quo, because there is no reason for the risk (which is what I voted for, i.e. remain). This just seems logical to me as someone who isn't knowledgeable about the subject.

Plus, as a scientist (who now works in Spain, although I didn't know that would happen when I voted...) there is too much uncertainty about funding for research. A lot comes from the EU, and there are SO MANY good European scientists who will not stay here in the long term because of Brexit, or will be put off from coming here. And believe me, there are a lot of them in our universities. I don't know what impact this will have on collaboration between groups in the UK and EU, too (again, a funding issue). I'm not even sure what will happen to me now. ](*,)

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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:22 pm

The immigration and freedom of movement issue is pretty much the biggest reason I'm against the entire idea of leaving, it runs contrary to so much of the core of my beliefs. The fact that it exposes the dark nasty side of so many people in this country is also pretty grim.

The worst thing is that, like so much else in the Leave campaign, all the negative things in this country that they pin on freedom of movement is also pretty much a lie.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:14 pm

Mantis wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:22 pm
The immigration and freedom of movement issue is pretty much the biggest reason I'm against the entire idea of leaving, it runs contrary to so much of the core of my beliefs. The fact that it exposes the dark nasty side of so many people in this country is also pretty grim.

The worst thing is that, like so much else in the Leave campaign, all the negative things in this country that they pin on freedom of movement is also pretty much a lie.
I think that's the big thing. I don't think it's dark or nasty to have a genuine concern about immigration.Theoretically, if our systems are encumbered then they'll help nobody whether they're British or not. And that isn't dark or nasty. It's possible that immigrants offer a net benefit to the economy but also pose a problem of scale for our current infrastructure and that people can accept one but feel strongly about the other.

But that's not the problem with our health system (for example). In fact, it isn't even lack of funding, that is only part of the issue with the NHS but that's a whole other thread.

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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:43 pm

I don't disagree with that, but the solution to me isn't to stop immigrants coming here, it's to end stupid ideological-led austerity measures and actually invest in the vital things that we need. People are suffering because successive governments over the years haven't spent money where it's needed and yet it's the immigrants who get the blame.

The dark and nasty stuff I was referring to is the more abhorrent levels of racism that it has brought to the limelight. Leavers can put their fingers in their ears and pretend it's not true all they like, but I have seen one hell of a lot of cases boiling down to people simply not liking Johnny Foreigner. Some non-English families are having to pull their kids out of school because of the intense amount of bullying they've received. All of it is down to the constant anti-foreign rhetoric that has been slowly taking a hold of the country for the last decade.

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Medicine Man
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Medicine Man » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:29 pm


Tommy
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:03 pm

Sounds like we've got a juicy week coming up with Labour putting pressure on the government to release the legal papers.

I finish my last exam just before PMQs begins, so hopefully I can be in the pub with a pint as Corbyn tears strips off.

Yes, my life really is this exciting.

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DjchunKfunK
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:27 am

Indie is pretty firmly on the left
It used to be but this has not been the case for a while. It's more rightwing than the Guardian now which itself vacillates between right wing and centre right. There is not actually a mainstream paper that sits on the left anymore which isn't a surprise when you consider that journalists for these papers very much come from a certain section of society.
It's possible that immigrants offer a net benefit to the economy but also pose a problem of scale for our current infrastructure and that people can accept one but feel strongly about the other.
There is no possible about it, multiple studies have shown that immigrants are net contributors to the economy.

Adding more people to the mix obviously puts added pressure on services because there are more people, but this isn't why services in the UK are struggling. They are struggling because of underinvestment and as immigrants are net contributors if you reduce the amount of immigrants then you actually reduce the amount of money being put into the system.

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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:32 pm

MPs find Government to be in contempt of Parliament for the first time ever. They also defeated the Government in a vote that allows them to enforce their right to vote on what to do next if May's deal is defeated next week.

Today marks a pretty significant turning point for this shambolic Government. Chances of a Hard Brexit are reduced if MPs get a say on the final deal. Perhaps Brexit itself may even be overturned if things carry on like this.

Incidentally, Nigel Farage has also left UKIP today, citing his disagreement with their shift towards being anti-Islam.

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Raid
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Raid » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:06 pm

Oh, another Brexit satire video. A Gollum impersonation, that's a new tak.... holy shit it's actually Andy Serkis.


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DjchunKfunK
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:54 am

Looks like May is pulling the vote, various news agencies reporting that. She doesn't even have the courage of her own convictions to go through with the vote on a deal she said was the only deal and the best deal.

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:19 pm

this is becoming a bit of a joke now. Politicians cannot play games with the future of this country so that they can advance their own political convictions. This should have been all party delegation right from the start

What a compete fucking shamble cock up

One thing is for sure David Cameron may go down in history as one of the worst PMs we ever had
Games playing : Bioshock (Remastered) / Total War Britannia / Dirt 4

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Strudel
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Strudel » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:35 pm

Right after Theresa May.

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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:02 pm

May is definitely worse, her tenure as Home Secretary was equally disastrous for this country and did nothing but fuel the fires that many Brexiter's use as the main point of their argument.

She spent two years appeasing the hardcore Leave contingent in her party and it has backed her so far into a corner that she has run out of options and is also now running out of time. She must be hoping that another week or two of hyper negative press might be enough to sway the rebels within her own party into voting with the Government; she's falling back on the whole "vote me down and get Corbyn" argument again and typically Tories close ranks when threatened by an opposition party. It could be enough to save her.

The EU have said that if her deal gets voted down then they will go back to negotiations, but May doesn't even have the spine to just bite the bullet and go for the vote.

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:28 pm

with Italy imploding, Germany without a functioning govt and Hungary going fullout Nazi, France in riots and potentially either going communist or fascist and Belgium in shambles - I doubt we will get the time now let alone the goodwill

:lol:

let it all burn. Its their fucking fault.

This is the classic case of what happens when you shove your head in the sand and hope it "all goes away". It just get worse and worse.

The EU continually failed to address the fundamental shortcomings with the Euro and the policy of free movement of labour when the writing was on the wall not less than 8 years ago. The chickens are coming home to roost. We are so wrapped up with Brexit that most people are failing to see that Europe itself is unravelling

When, not if, we have a global recession in 2019 (2020 at the latest) the shit is really going to hit the fan. I am telling you the EU project will change and free movement of labour will be scrapped
Games playing : Bioshock (Remastered) / Total War Britannia / Dirt 4

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