The Absolute State Of It - It's The UK Politics Thread!

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Strudel
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Strudel » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:51 pm

Raid wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:18 pm
Wrathbone wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:09 pm
Achtung Englander wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:40 am
On a side note about this - Corbyn has zero scruples. He now says he will give a second referendum a possibility after first stating he will honour the 1st referendum. He will say anything to anyone to get a Labour vote.
Or, you know, maybe he's adapting to the situation? Unlike strong and stable May who refuses to budge an inch no matter what the consequences.
Indeed. There's mounting evidence that if repeated, the vote would now go the other way. Call me old fashioned, but I thought a politician wanting to represent the desires of the population (even if it conflicts with their own principles) was supposed to be a good thing.
I think this is giving Corbyn more credit than is due. He doesn't like the EU and he's done a very poor job of representing his constituent's views that it's a good thing. His hedging has been far more because he's against it and many of his MPs are for it, rather than because of the will of the people.

I like Corbyn as an individual and I admire his dedication to principles and truthfully I can't think of many other politicians I trust to actually mean what they say and do what they believe it, but I also think he's been a very shit leader over the last year or so. Before that he was constantly fighting against the idiots in his own party hell-bent on bringing him down, but more recently he's had far more latitude to actually lead, and he fails at it abysmally. The Tories have been in backroom civil war, and now public in-fighting for a year and Labour should have a 10 point lead in the polls, but Corbyn won't do anything because he fundamentally agrees with them that we should be out of the EU.

He should stick to being a backbencher and fighting for the things he believes in, because he can't lead a major political party.

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:54 pm

agree with you Mantis

The rest of the world is going towards trade blocs and we are heading in the opposite direction in some deluded pretence we have significance because we once had an Empire. The Tories panicked when UKIP was gaining popularity in 2014 and Cameron gambled on a referendum to quiet down the hard line anti-Europeans and it completely back-fired.

If the EU stayed as a trading bloc and was less political in its intent to drive a Federal Europe and stayed as a rich man's club, we would not be here

Cameron fucked up on a situation that is doomed to fuck up anyway.



As for Labour - they are just as fucked up over Brexit as the Tories. Every week its something new and a different course in direction that the previous week. Their 6 point plan is fucking laughable and they think they can do a better job than the divided Tories.
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DjchunKfunK
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:23 pm

I like Corbyn as an individual and I admire his dedication to principles and truthfully I can't think of many other politicians I trust to actually mean what they say and do what they believe it, but I also think he's been a very shit leader over the last year or so. Before that he was constantly fighting against the idiots in his own party hell-bent on bringing him down, but more recently he's had far more latitude to actually lead, and he fails at it abysmally.
Corbyn has made some mistakes and has his flaws, but none of the stuff he has struggled with since he took office has gone away. The media still hate him and consistently misrepresent his views and the majority of his MPs still dislike him. Considering the landscape in which he has to lead he's doing a pretty amazing job.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:30 pm

The level of anti-Corbynism in the public mindset is depressing, though understandable given the continuous media onslaught. If he sticks to his principles, people say he needs to play the political game better and he's not cut out for it. If he does something in favour of the party that goes against his personal views, he's an unprincipled sell-out. He really cannot win in some people's views.

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:00 pm

I would say most Brits are centralists. Corbyn is several degrees to the left for some people find comfortable. His shadow cabinet is pretty woeful and the answer to all of society problems is to throw money at it without putting forward any structural plans for improvement or efficiencies. Than again the Tories are a mess, completely paralysed by Brexit and offer little or no inspiration in them.

We deserve so much better as a nation.
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:17 pm

We do have a vacuum of political prowess in the current generation of politicians. As much as I loathe both of them, Warmonger Blair and Pigfucker Cameron (to give them their proper titles) were political powerhouses compared to the current crop.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:35 pm

Centrist is such a worthless phrase as it doesn't mean what people think it does. When people talk about being centrist, often invoking Blair, what they really mean is right of centre. The Overtone window has been moved so far to the right that what is considered the centre is not the centre. The reason why some people are so horrified by Labour's policies is because they now sit on the right of the spectrum and Labour under Corbyn seem far left even though they are not that far left at all.

The UK is more left than you think achtung, its just obscured by a right wing media.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:56 pm

.....maybe.....Labour did not win under Ed Milliband and he was more right than Corbyn, so I don't know about that. New Labour won because they took the centre. This current Labour party is left wing which could explain why they are not ahead in the polls (but polls are often wrong anyway), so who knows
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Jez
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Jez » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:04 pm

Corbyn just seem like a protest vote to me. He's got no more of a clue than the rest and to boot is a objectionable bad tempered grumpy old man. That's subjective of course but that's how he seems to me. Him and his momentum lot have done a fine job of breaking any notion of credible opposition.
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Sly Boots » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:08 pm

Achtung Englander wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:56 pm
.....maybe.....Labour did not win under Ed Milliband and he was more right than Corbyn, so I don't know about that. New Labour won because they took the centre. This current Labour party is left wing which could explain why they are not ahead in the polls (but polls are often wrong anyway), so who knows
I think the other Milliband would have won. I'm still not entirely sure why they chose Ed of the two.

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Jez
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Jez » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:11 pm

Yes I don't recall why they picked ED over David. But yeah I think he would eaten a mean bacon sandwich and not trip up over everything while doing it.
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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:23 pm

Sly Boots wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:08 pm
Achtung Englander wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:56 pm
.....maybe.....Labour did not win under Ed Milliband and he was more right than Corbyn, so I don't know about that. New Labour won because they took the centre. This current Labour party is left wing which could explain why they are not ahead in the polls (but polls are often wrong anyway), so who knows
I think the other Milliband would have won. I'm still not entirely sure why they chose Ed of the two.
100% agree - it was a massive shot in the foot. I would of voted for Dave Milliband. Oh well. I would love to be a fly on the wall at those Xmas dinners

Dave to Ed "yeah.....you fucked it all up didn't ya !"
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Raid
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Raid » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:28 pm

But then we wouldn't have had the Labour manifesto carved into something suspiciously tombstoney.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Snowy » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:05 pm

Raid wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:28 pm
But then we wouldn't have had the Labour manifesto carved into something suspiciously tombstoney.
Better than the almost literal tombstone we can carve as a nation if the 'will of the people' gets enacted...
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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:39 pm

Centrist is such a whimsical term that means nothing, even left and right are pretty antiquated ways of looking at politics in reality. People's views are responsive to their experiences and are pretty fluid, by and large British people are no different to any other people of any other country, they just like to get on with their lives and see shit getting done. How many of us in this country like the NHS? Pretty much everyone? Guess we're all left wing then because the NHS is a socialist concept. Oh, but what about people getting too many welfare benefits? Yeah, I think we all dislike that, guess we're right wing! There is so little point in stupid delineations like left and right, it's handy when you want to demonise a group of people though; like say when the media stirs up a fuss about the fact that anyone who is left wing is clearly a communist and wants to take your house off you and give it to immigrants from Albania.

Corbyn has a clear agenda that would fix a number of current significant issues in this country. Yeah he'd be a bit subpar in some areas, but it's not like it can get much worse than the situation we're currently in. This country is circling the drain at the moment and on the verge of becoming an utter cesspit after 40+ years of being slowly asset stripped. There's a reason every institution around us is slowly failing and it isn't because of us employing too many Polish doctors.

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