The Absolute State Of It - It's The UK Politics Thread!

[Tommy]

His mannerisms and tone are condescending and he comes across as an angry woodwork teacher.

Really? I try to avoid watching the news these days (I find current political discussion strongly affects my depression and I have altogether too much of that from other sources), but when I followed him during the last election I thought he came across remarkably well.

He’s improved from where he was, presumably because of a PR hire, but he still doesn’t like being asked questions he doesn’t want to be asked or can’t answer. Fine, except he can’t hide it. A huge part of being a politician is being criticised and challenged and if you can’t handle it you’re in the wrong line of work.

He’s a useful backbencher, but he isn’t a leader. Like Ed would be a superb addition to the shadow cabinet, but wasn’t a leader.

[DjchunKfunK]

This is utter nonsense.

Corbyn trails in every poll on leadership and (on my last check) every poll on economic management. Further, this is the most disastrous government of my lifetime at the very least and Labour are barely drawing even.

Corbyn's the Buzz Lightyear of politics. And he's utterly fine with it. I despise him.

That's another thing I hate about the current situation re. Labour. Anybody who questions Corbyn is assumed to want a leader in a similar vein to Blair. It's a false dichotomy. Maybe they just want someone who's serious about attaining power. (This isn't aimed at anyone btw, it's just a general peeve).

Polls are yet to show that they have corrected for the mess they made of the last election and Brexit before it, the last thing I would do now is trust much of what pollsters are saying.

I don't think anyone is saying Corbyn is perfect and I wasn't talking about the current political situation in my response I was directly referring to the previous election.

[Achtung Englander]

you have to admit the whole debacle with the Palestinian funeral was utterly bizarre (and funny) when it came down to defining "being there", "flowers" and "honouring" and other such nonsense. After reeling from accused of being anti-semitic to u-turning on Brexit like he is navigating around a roundabout, the example of being a woodwork teacher out of his element is an accurate one imo.

May's opposition is her own cabinet. It's not Labour.

[Mantis]

I feel like his reluctance to commit to any particular line regarding the Palestine issue is simply because he knew that no matter what he said he was going to be lynched for it. The anti-semitism rabid mob is one of the areas that has been most willfully taken out of all context, with people adopting utterly hysterical stances devoid of all reason.

[Tommy]

I feel like his reluctance to commit to any particular line regarding the Palestine issue is simply because he knew that no matter what he said he was going to be lynched for it. The anti-semitism rabid mob is one of the areas that has been most willfully taken out of all context, with people adopting utterly hysterical stances devoid of all reason.

That's not good enough though.

Firstly, there are clearly anti-semitism issues within his following. I don't think this is his fault; there's been anti-semitism problems on the left forever. However, the problem was dealt with incredibly poorly.

I don't think he's an anti-semite either, but I think his approach to the issue naturally suggests he could have a problem. It should've been a week-long story max. Instead, it's STILL plaguing the party. Meanwhile, the Tories rip shreads off each other (themselves with race issues) and nobody's picking up the slack. There's easy wins he misses time and time again.

I hate talking about Corbyn. I just hope there's an opportunity to depose him soon and we can choose someone more suitable.

EDIT: Achtung - You're right, and it's posssible that the Labour approach might be to take a backseat and let the Tories do their work for them. Except it isn't working, and we could be hurtling towards a General Election.

[DjchunKfunK]

The Palestinian funeral thing was a classic example of the media spinning a situation for their own ends. As Mantis said no way he could say something that wasn't going to result in the press ripping him to shreds.

They did handle the anti-Semitism situation poorly but a lot of the fuss was over the dropping of the definitions which was a valid decision that was painted as the worst kind of anti-Semitism at the time.

I sometimes find it hard to separate the man Corbyn from his policies when it comes to people criticising him. It feels like the criticism is magnified because people don't like his left-wing agenda and want to see him fail.

[Jez]

If he had even an ounce of charisma and statemanship his policies would matter a whole lot less. He doesn't so it's easy to not like him. Hes a grumpy dithering protest of a man. Whoever said he had a statesman way about him you're very wrong.

[DjchunKfunK]

I'd take someone with principles and decent policies over a 'statesman' any day of the week.

[Wrathbone]

he still doesn’t like being asked questions he doesn’t want to be asked or can’t answer.

That applies to literally every politician that has ever existed.

I've given up trying to convince Corbyn-haters otherwise because whatever I say to them, whatever false news I disprove or unreported facts I provide, they'll find some way to justify their hatred and perpetuate the media narrative of him. I'm beyond tired of hearing the same untrue, misleading shit being thrown around. If he won the next election, cured cancer, ended world poverty and ushered in a new era of peace and prosperity, some people would still say he's a doddering old fool who isn't fit to lead and probably kicked some puppies while shaking hands with a terrorist. There's really no point trying to argue against that sort of mindset.

[Tommy]

he still doesn’t like being asked questions he doesn’t want to be asked or can’t answer.

That applies to literally every politician that has ever existed.

I've given up trying to convince Corbyn-haters otherwise because whatever I say to them, whatever false news I disprove or unreported facts I provide, they'll find some way to justify their hatred and perpetuate the media narrative of him. I'm beyond tired of hearing the same untrue, misleading shit being thrown around. If he won the next election, cured cancer, ended world poverty and ushered in a new era of peace and prosperity, some people would still say he's a doddering old fool who isn't fit to lead and probably kicked some puppies while shaking hands with a terrorist. There's really no point trying to argue against that sort of mindset.

Don’t take what I said out of context. I said that’s fine, except he can’t hide it.

I’m also not that interested in how tired you are of defending Corbyn. I think the mindset of anybody who can’t see his shortfalls betrays those Labour are supposed to defend. I’m not particularly vocal about my criticism, I still vote Labour and and I still occasionally doorstep (rarity now). However, it’s not me he has to convince, which is why Corbynites’ criticism of ‘moderates/Tory lites/Blairites/centrists’ often falls short. Even if they were fully on board it wouldn’t make a difference because the view o those Labour need to convince is that he isn’t a leader. It’s that same dismissive nature that blew the Anti-Semitic issue up too, incidentally.

EDIT: Just to move this away from Jez, I’m so torn on Mogg’s coup. I’m struggling to logically link steps which lead towards a second referendum with no Brexit on the table. I appreciate it’s unlikely, but I don’t know whether his success helps or hinders it.

[Wrathbone]

Even if they were fully on board it wouldn’t make a difference because the view o those Labour need to convince is that he isn’t a leader. It’s that same dismissive nature that blew the Anti-Semitic issue up too, incidentally.

The reason it wouldn't make a difference is because the people who've decided he's not a leader would insist he's not a leader even if he turned out to be Alexander the Great, and are more interested in trying to prove his lack of leadership than May's. And the reason the anti-Semitic issue blew up is because the mainstream media ran a campaign for weeks on end focusing on it, when the fact is that the Conservatives got away with things like an MP being photographed dressed as a Nazi. The BBC ran a story about how Labour were under police investigation for anti-Semitism, which was discussed on HIGNFY, and the Met police chief had to make a statement explaining that wasn't the case. The BBC never corrected it as far as I'm aware. Anti-Semitism certainly is a problem in politics (not just within Labour), but the targeted assault not only on Labour but on Corbyn personally (despite his public condemnation of anti-Semitism and efforts to reduce it within the party) was abhorrent.

[Tommy]

Even if they were fully on board it wouldn’t make a difference because the view o those Labour need to convince is that he isn’t a leader. It’s that same dismissive nature that blew the Anti-Semitic issue up too, incidentally.

The reason it wouldn't make a difference is because the people who've decided he's not a leader would insist he's not a leader even if he turned out to be Alexander the Great, and are more interested in trying to prove his lack of leadership than May's. And the reason the anti-Semitic issue blew up is because the mainstream media ran a campaign for weeks on end focusing on it, when the fact is that the Conservatives got away with things like an MP being photographed dressed as a Nazi. The BBC ran a story about how Labour were under police investigation for anti-Semitism, which was discussed on HIGNFY, and the Met police chief had to make a statement explaining that wasn't the case. The BBC never corrected it as far as I'm aware. Anti-Semitism certainly is a problem in politics (not just within Labour), but the targeted assault not only on Labour but on Corbyn personally (despite his public condemnation of anti-Semitism and efforts to reduce it within the party) was abhorrent.

Equally I could say he's displayed little to no traits of a leader of even mediocre level and there are certain people to whom this doesn't make a difference, because they're too busy scrambling for excuses for him.

I gave him a fair chance. He's a shambles. Given I'm more informed than the average voter, if he can't convince me what hope does he have for anybody else?

[Mantis]

I don't think you could equally say that at all really, because if you seriously think he has shown little to no traits of being a leader then you're looking at him through a pretty blinkered perspective. I think my views on him are fairly realistic and I don't think he'll win an election, but he definitely has admirable traits that I would want in someone running this country. Many times he has shown himself to be diplomatic and a voice of reason, he's personable and approachable and always takes great efforts to talk and listen to the general public when he's out and about, he's principled (stubbornly so at times, which has caused some amounts of grief in the media) and he has shown tremendous resilience to the frankly outrageous amount of hatred he receives, which I think is very admirable.

He's not the most charismatic or disarming, he struggles with managing the constant concerted efforts of people to undermine him and his biggest issue, I think, is that he's generally not great at playing the political game, so his opponents have a fairly easy time of outmaneuvering him. Instead of measuring his views and presenting a big cheesy grin on TV like Blair did, he stands at the dispatch box and sounds grumpy whilst highlighting all the things the Conservatives have done to ruin our country.

I honestly find it ridiculous that people will want to spend more time talking about how grumpy Corbyn is rather than the fact that he will stand at PMQs looking grumpy when asking about poverty rates and deaths due to benefits cuts whilst Conservative MPs jeer and laugh. They jeer and laugh about people being on the streets or dying because of government policies. How stupidly fucking disconnected are we as a society from people's plights that we really think Corbyn deserves the scorn here?

[Tommy]

I don't think you could equally say that at all really, because if you seriously think he has shown little to no traits of being a leader then you're looking at him through a pretty blinkered perspective. I think my views on him are fairly realistic and I don't think he'll win an election, but he definitely has admirable traits that I would want in someone running this country. Many times he has shown himself to be diplomatic and a voice of reason, he's personable and approachable and always takes great efforts to talk and listen to the general public when he's out and about, he's principled (stubbornly so at times, which has caused some amounts of grief in the media) and he has shown tremendous resilience to the frankly outrageous amount of hatred he receives, which I think is very admirable.

He's not the most charismatic or disarming, he struggles with managing the constant concerted efforts of people to undermine him and his biggest issue, I think, is that he's generally not great at playing the political game, so his opponents have a fairly easy time of outmaneuvering him. Instead of measuring his views and presenting a big cheesy grin on TV like Blair did, he stands at the dispatch box and sounds grumpy whilst highlighting all the things the Conservatives have done to ruin our country.

I honestly find it ridiculous that people will want to spend more time talking about how grumpy Corbyn is rather than the fact that he will stand at PMQs looking grumpy when asking about poverty rates and deaths due to benefits cuts whilst Conservative MPs jeer and laugh. They jeer and laugh about people being on the streets or dying because of government policies. How stupidly fucking disconnected are we as a society from people's plights that we really think Corbyn deserves the scorn here?

So because I think he's shown little to no traits of being a leader I must be blinkered?

[Mantis]

The level of hate you seem to have for the guy is rather puzzling. I mean, it kind of speaks volumes that you only responded to that part of my post and ignored the rest.

In your opinion, are those traits I listed not something that a leader should display?