The elephant in the room - Brexit

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Raid
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Raid » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:16 pm

Mantis wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:02 pm
The EU have said that if her deal gets voted down then they will go back to negotiations, but May doesn't even have the spine to just bite the bullet and go for the vote.
Actually they've said the opposite.



And why should they renegotiate? May's crisis is not their concern. Nothing else has changed.

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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:53 pm

I read somewhere that a spokesperson said that negotiations could reopen if this deal failed to get through parliament. I think they meant in the sense that either May will accept freedom of movement and they will negotiate a new deal around that, or May will go even more hardline and we will end up with a much more limited offer than what has currently been proposed.

I think all the talk of not negotiating any longer is primarily on the matter of the current deal, so May going back to Europe and expecting to get them to change their offer on the Irish backstop with the current proposals is totally pointless because they won't budge on this offer.

It'll be grossly irresponsible if she delays this vote until the very last possible moment so that there is no choice between either accepting it or crashing out entirely with no deal. That's probably exactly what she wants to do; "My deal or none at all".

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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:41 pm

I've had parliament TV on all afternoon while I've been getting some work done at home and it is really unlike anything I've ever seen. The amount of fury on the benches is intense, even Conservative MPs are absolutely livid in their questions.

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Strudel
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Strudel » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:27 pm

I've also spent most of my afternoon watching (instead of working ¬_¬) and I just don't understand how she thinks anyone will ever like her.

After years of "No deal is better than a bad deal" she's basically already told them to ignore her.

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:44 pm

she has lost all credibility and me thinks this is way above her head. The EU will not give any concessions (why would they). We should have just exited 2 years ago and by now we would have been in a much better position or at least know where we are. This is just shit and frankly embarrassing.
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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:51 pm

On WTO rules? Economic suicide.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:50 pm

it looks like we are going in that direction anyway - besides...that is kind of what Brexit is all about
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Strudel
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Strudel » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:51 am

Just because we are heading towards the cliff edge, doesn't mean we should just blindly dive off it.

Even before the referendum, the likes of Boris Johnson and Michael Gove were very clear that we should stay in the Single Market. Nigel Farage was adamant that there should be a second vote if it was a close call. Jacob Rees-Mogg as well, said there should certainly be a second vote once the details of any deal were agreed.

The idea that people voted for complete collapse is a nonsense. For people who talk about taking back control and the will of the people, the Brexit lot are vehemently opposed to democratic process.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by DjchunKfunK » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:07 am

Yesterday was just another in a long line of awful decisions made by May. Hey disregard for anything other than her own job was laid bare when she took the decision to postpone the vote. This now leaves less time for the Commons to come together around a sensible alternative, whatever that may be, and makes a cliff-edge Brexit more likely. It's hard to think how May could have handled this process any worse than she has.
fundamental shortcomings with the Euro and the policy of free movement of labour
I'll give you the Euro, but that is more the implementation than the idea itself, I have no idea what you are going on about when it comes to free movement. The only way free movement has been an issue is through right-wing parties trying to blame their countries ills on immigration.

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Strudel
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Strudel » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:00 am

Yeah, the immigration thing bugs the crap out of me. Free movement is not an issue. If we have such a problem with other people coming to the UK then why did we allow in four times as many non-EU people last year than EU-people? We have complete control over that, and it was quite clear we NEED these people.

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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:22 pm

Because it's easy to blame everything on Johnny Foreigner rather than accept the fact that Britain is slowly rotting away.

I watched a short BBC doc about Westcliff the other day, it's a coastal town whose economy has whittled away over the last thirty years and doesn't get any investment from the council or government. They voted UKIP councillors in and when interviewed almost all of them blamed it on immigrants stealing their jobs, one of them even compared it to the D-Day landings with swarms of them arriving on the coast in ships.

There is a certain level of obliviousness that you can't reason with. They don't they want a second referendum either because it'd be a bit too much democracy for them.

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Raid
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Raid » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:48 pm


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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Correndous Hunt » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:57 pm

:lol:

I do love those Jag XJs.

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:31 pm

my point about free movement is the fact that it is used as an excuse by the right to justify bashing johnny foreigner to gain popularity. The fact is the right is gaining in strength based on fear of immigration and unless the EU want to continue to see social democrat parties retain power they need to address this. Just because blaming immigration is wrong, morally and logically, it does not change the facts on the ground. In Europe the centre is losing to the right. It is happening in Italy, Greece, Hungary, Austria, Germany and now Le Penn is gaining popularity from the collapse of Macron. This is all before a recession.

I am not advocating a stop to free movement because I hate foreigners. I am advocating a change in the rules to save the EU before its too late.
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by DjchunKfunK » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:14 am

You don't fix a problem with racism by punishing the group that is the target of said racism.

Conservative Leadership contest has been triggered, vote is at 6pm this evening. Let the bun fight begin!

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