The elephant in the room - Brexit

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:40 pm

anyone got a time machine ?

Can I zip to 2030 please
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Tommy
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:43 pm

I can’t believe after everything that’s happened this week everyone’s back to their corners.

Insanity.

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:30 pm

yeah This Week got it totally right - we are in Groundhog Day
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Tommy
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Tommy » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:15 pm

I don't want this to turn into a Corbyn thing again but genuine question. How, after all of this, are Labour still trailing in the polls?

What are people seeing that I'm not?

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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:42 pm

A combination of damage already done to his credibility long ago by a concerted smear campaign and the fact that any signs of opposition that Labour put up against the Tories is spun by the government as them trying to frustrate or, shock, cancel Brexit. May has made such a hash of pretty much everything and is now holding parliament hostage in some utterly stupid game of chicken with the EU and yet Corbyn is still regarded by polling as less trusted on delivering/handling Brexit.

It helps that a lot of people fall for the Eton-esque, upper class "I talk posh so I'm clearly born to rule" image that the Tories work hard to maintain.

I believe in everything Corbyn is about and I think he'd be very good for this country, barring the odd weird populist policy that doesn't seem workable; but the reality is that he's never going to win an election for Labour while he stays as party leader. There's no time to swap him out for another before this Brexit train crash finishes happening either unfortunately.

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Strudel
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Strudel » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:32 pm

I think that's being a bit overly generous to Corbyn. I agree with him on a lot of things, but his strategy of just sit back and let the Tories implode only works to a degree; he hasn't provided a coherent alternative. Just saying "We'd get a better deal" is not going to work because 1) he couldn't and 2) you need to spell out how it would be better. Part of the reason May's deal is so loathed is that no one really knows what it is (because it's shit and vague, but also largely because she hasn't actually sold it).

A lot of people don't trust Corbyn, and I think a lot of that is as Mantis says because of the smear campaign and damage dealt to his credibility previously, but his problem is that he's done nothing to show people why that was all bollocks. On Brexit, that's difficult because he's probably more a Brexiteer than May is and the fact that he won't seemingly do anything to press the point about what SHOULD be done rather than just constantly pointing out how shit May is (which everyone can surely see) just shows that he hasn't given a credible alternative because he wants to leave too.

I agree with Corbyn on a lot, and I've backed him through all the bullshit he's endured because I still agree with him on most things, if not Brexit, but I've had enough of him pussyfooting around and if a snap election were held right now I wouldn't vote Labour.

Not that it matters as I'm in one of the safest Labour seats in the country.

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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:53 pm

Can't argue with that. I think letting the Tories implode over it was the absolute right thing to do for pretty much the whole of the last two years, because frankly there was very little Labour could do to stop them and why draw attention to themselves when the Tories are having a very public internal party conflict that's been brewing for forty years. It's reaching a point now though where Labour need to come down from the fence and lay out what they would do if they did somehow manage to secure an election or second referendum. When May is pretty clear that it's now a case of her deal or she'll happily crash us out without any kind of deal at all it should be enough of a wake-up call.

The main issue is that Labour are going to be in just as much trouble when they finally pick a side, as a lot of their heartlands are pretty firm Leave constituencies. Not to mention the fact that the whole scenario has been framed as "We won't accept anything that makes us worse off" when the reality is that there is no deal that will be better than our current arrangement of actually being in the EU.

I'm kind of resigned to the fact that we're probably going to be leaving now, as nobody has the spine to say "You know what, this is drastically not in our interests, should never have been put to a referendum anyway and it's my job to look after the nation as a whole; let's cancel Brexit entirely". I think that the best thing Labour can do at this point is opt for an arrangement similar to the EFTA (though not directly EFTA membership as Norway has already said they will block that because we have burned all goodwill we ever had with other states), with full customs union and single market membership and just tell the people moaning about freedom of movement to go do one. It's utterly pointless to trade our current position for what is essentially the same thing but with no rebate, increased fees and no seat at the table; but it's the best way to honour the result of the referendum without too drastically ruining our own economy. And all just to keep a whole bunch of ignorant people and racists happy, wonderful stuff.

I'd be surprised if there wasn't violence in the streets over this at some point.

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The Jackal
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by The Jackal » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:02 pm

Image
Image
Mighty Horse Rocks The Fat Ass.

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:27 am

The fact we may crash out with no deal and not really prepared for it when it happens has totally reinforced my opinion that the civil service and govt in general is completely fucking useless. Not that everything in the private sector is brilliant, far from it, but Jesus Christ this has been a complete waste of 2 WHOLE YEARS.

May should have completely checked mate the other parties by spending the first 4 months on a cross-party think tank and should have been completely transparent throughout the entire process. If the DUP were shown to be acting like kids - than expose it, if Labour were just obsessed with a general election - than expose it. They should have come up with a game plan A and if that failed game plan B and if that failed game plan C. All laid and bare and exposed within the first 6 months to allow for preparation. The Tories left everything secret and to the last minute.

I did not have much time for Labour to begin with but in the last 1 month they have taken the biscuit. Their attitude is don't just do something, stand there. Watching Rome burn while you fiddle with your calculus to see if you can muster enough votes is dangerous. At least those morons from the ERG had the gumption to give it a go and topple May. They make Labour look like a bunch of wet sissies and Labour believes they have what it takes to rule, fuck off.

The EU are a bunch of intransigent arseholes. The DUP are idiots. The Tories are incompetent and Labour are scared of their own shadow.

Now I understand why Italians with constant coalition governments and stalemates spend all their time watching football instead.
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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:57 am

I wouldn't lay quite so much blame on the civil service for this, they are entirely beholden to do what the government tells them and there has been no direction whatsoever as to what kind of exit we were looking at, even now it's not exactly clear.

It's taken the Tories about six years to roll out Universal Credit and it's still so ineffective that there are calls to cancel it and reconsider how they're doing it. The chances of them getting the whole country ready for a hard exit in March seem pretty damn remote to me.

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DjchunKfunK
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by DjchunKfunK » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:58 pm

Yeah blaming the Civil Service is misguided. They are directed by the Government and have little to no leeway to do anything outside the remit given to them, especially in a time when anything that isn't furthering government policy is seen as obstructing Brexit by the media and MPs. Additionally a lot of the Brexit stuff is being headed up by SPADs not actual civil servants.

I can understand being annoyed at Labour not making their position clear but at the same time they don't have to as they are the opposition, it is the governments job to lead this. The party is also nearly as divided on the issue as the Conservatives so I'm not surprised they have kept it vague.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by eny » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:35 am

It definitely was "Stupid people"......
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˙ƃuıʇıɹʍ ʎuıʇ ʎllɐǝɹ uʍop ǝpısdn

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Strudel
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Strudel » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:33 am

Yeah, it's quite clear if you watch the video back that his mouth makes a "P" shape not a "Wo" shape. FFS how shit that politics has come to this.

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Wrathbone
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Wrathbone » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:55 am

If they're going to distract from the political reality with more headlines based on false accusations against Corbyn, why not give them a festive spin and say he hates Christmas because he looks a bit like a dishevelled Communist Santa who steals all your presents and redistributes them in a utilitarian manner, minus those gifts required by the State. I mean, Santa does wear red, so it's more plausible than some of the shit thrown in Corbyn's direction.

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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:43 pm

The double standards in this country and blatant bias in the media makes me so sick.

One comment from Corbyn and it takes over the headlines for the day. The Tories reinstate the whip of two suspended MPs who have received allegations of sexual offences just to keep May in position for the confidence vote and you barely hear a peep about it.

How many rogues, shysters, malicious cunts, liars, homophobes, racists, misogynists and xenophobes do we need to disgrace in the Conservative party before people wake the hell up.

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