The elephant in the room - Brexit

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Wrathbone
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:30 pm

Strudel wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:21 pm
Actually put forward a position on Brexit. Preferably one grounded in reality rather than "we'll get a better deal" which is just nonsense.
So... what other position? Second referendum, which would be opposed by many? Or go with May's deal, which nobody wants? Or secret option number 4?
Just admit that the whole thing has been handled abysmally by the current government and in the current circumstance our best option right now is to revoke article 50 or at the very least have a vote based on actual facts rather than lies and ridiculous promises and put back the deadline until the country has actually voted on what the options are.
I think the fact that he condemned May's government and called for a general election suggests he's not a big fan of how they've handled Brexit.

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Strudel
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Strudel » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:38 pm

It's easy to demand a general election when you know there's no possibility of it happening. Yes, I do want him to stake out a position. Whether that's a second referendum, supporting May's deal, or supporting no-deal at least stand for something. At the moment the Labour party is worse than UKIP for just complaining from the sidelines without presenting any credible alternative. No one is going to follow a leader who never leads (as evidenced by the rubbish polling of Labour against an incredibly incompetent government).

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Wrathbone
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:04 pm

His position is that the Conservatives are not fit to lead the country through Brexit, and given everything they've done to date I don't think there's much to dispute with that. You might not think Labour would do any better, but what do you expect Corbyn to say other than he should be given a chance to negotiate before abandoning Brexit altogether? He's the Labour leader, that's his job. If he agrees to May's deal that would be terrible for everyone, and if he immediately calls for a second referendum rather than demanding an election then he'll be portrayed as subverting democracy.

The reality is that he HAS taken a position, and apparently you don't agree with it or think it will work. That's your prerogative, but it doesn't make him an ineffectual leader.

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Strudel
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Strudel » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:47 pm

"The other side are rubbish" isn't a position though. He can't negotiate a different deal even if he were in power because the EU have already said the deal is there; take it or leave it. His position is exactly the same as Theresa May in that he says he'll go back to Brussels and get a better deal. Brussels aren't going to change the deal just because someone else is asking them to.

As to asking for a referendum before asking for an election, he's already asked for an election and it was rejected only a month ago. So again, he doesn't actually have a position other than "I can do better" which isn't a position at all. So you're right, I don't like his position, but I'm not the only one and his tactic clearly isn't working if they're still behind the Tories in the polling. Maybe those claiming he's doing the right thing need to reassess what that's worth if it's losing votes.

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Wrathbone
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:00 pm

Strudel wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:47 pm
"The other side are rubbish" isn't a position though. He can't negotiate a different deal even if he were in power because the EU have already said the deal is there; take it or leave it. His position is exactly the same as Theresa May in that he says he'll go back to Brussels and get a better deal. Brussels aren't going to change the deal just because someone else is asking them to.
Wasn't it Juncker or Tusk who said a while back that they'd consider renegotiation if there was another party in charge after an election?
As to asking for a referendum before asking for an election, he's already asked for an election and it was rejected only a month ago. So again, he doesn't actually have a position other than "I can do better" which isn't a position at all.
As I understand it, he can keep calling for elections, which would probably end the same way because the DUP will cling to power at any cost. The point is that his position isn't so much "I can do better" as "May can't do any better, she's had her chances; let Labour have a try". They've laid out what they would ask for. This isn't the simple Tory-bashing that you're suggesting it is.

As much as I'd like a second referendum, I don't agree that it would be a better move for Corbyn or Labour to support that in the current situation until they've been given a chance at negotiation. It's a moot point because May is running down the clock by doing precisely nothing.

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Strudel
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Strudel » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:25 pm

Not quite, they said they would be willing to reopen negotiations if there was a significant alteration in the UK position (e.g. on Free Movement) but that it was incumbent on the UK Government to clearly articulate their position.

And yes, Corbyn can keep calling for elections which will never happen, but what's the point in that? The only people who can allow for a new election are the Tories and DUP - the people who have nothing to gain by having one, so it'll never happen. He might as well be calling for the abolition of parliamentary democracy; it's just another crazy man shouting at the wind.

Months ago I was fully in support of the "Let the Tories implode" strategy, but now you need to actually provide an alternative, which the Labour party are singularly failing to do. The current strategy is evidently not working so something needs to be done to break through in the polls.

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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:45 pm

Corbyn does have a position though and the EU spokespeople have already said they'd be open to discussing the possibilities of it with Labour if given the chance, that's a full customs union essentially equivalent to a Norway style deal.

I was happy to see if the Tories would implode if left to their own devices, but I think it's pretty clear that won't happen now. They will let the economy crash before risking a full split in their party. Labour do need to take a new domestic position on this now as it's clear they won't get a general election, the problem is that choosing either Remain or Leave stands to massively damage the party either way which is why I think Corbyn won't commit yet. May is deliberately dragging things out so that nobody can really do anything at all without seeming like they are subverting the democratic will of the people.

This whole scenario is now coming down to a huge game of chicken between May and Parliament. I just hope it comes to a cliff edge and, rather than voting for May's deal at the last second, someone tables an emergency motion to revoke Article 50 and a majority of MPs back that instead.

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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:20 pm

Anyone still following this or has everyone given up in exasperation? Looks like nothing has changed ahead of the vote tomorrow apart from enshrining in law a letter saying that both sides want to work to develop an alternative to the backstop as soon as possible.

I'm not sure what Keir Starmer's record generally is, but he is excellent in the Commons, highlighting with brutal precision exactly how the last few months have been a waste of time whilst the Conservatives are trying to pull a fast one over everyone. Starting to think he might make a good Labour leader.

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Strudel
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Strudel » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:10 pm

I didn't get a chance to watch it this evening, but I agree that Starmer is usually excellent.

From what I've seen tonight is the letter just stating that both side interpret the agreement slightly differently and they've agreed that they disagree?

I can't see how that makes the blindest bit of difference, because there was nothing stopping the UK later down the line from unilaterally leaving the backstop other than it would fuck up our relationship with Europe. Which is exactly what would happen if we did it after this letter. Either way we'd get completely shafted.

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The Jackal
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by The Jackal » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:21 pm

I'm too busy trying to die of alcohol poisoning to keep track. Someone post the results in large text when they happen.
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Drarok
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Drarok » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:59 am

Everything's fucked.

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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Sly Boots » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:03 pm

My strategy has basically been the same as Sean in Sean of the Dead: Have a cup of tea and wait for all of this to blow over.



Basically terrified but hoping against hope that somehow everyone will come to their senses and it will be ok.

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Achtung Englander
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Achtung Englander » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:08 pm

Looks like the IRA is kicking off proceedings again. Oh joy !

This is so FUBAR
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Mantis
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Mantis » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:29 pm

Looks like nobody is buying May trying to fudge the deal through Parliament so she's on the path to another three figure loss today.

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Stormbringer
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Re: The elephant in the room - Brexit

Post by Stormbringer » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:54 pm

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I have whirl’d with the earth at the dawning,
When the sky was a vaporous flame;
I have seen the dark universe yawning,
Where the black planets roll without aim;
Where they roll in their horror unheeded, without knowledge or lustre or name.

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