Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by Sly Boots » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:37 am

I never do this these days, but as soon as the next paycheck goes in I'm going to pre-order this from GOG. Did the same for Witcher 3 and needless to say didn't regret it!

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by Strudel » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:24 am

One thing's for sure; this will definitely have an A-list celebrity whose in-game emoting will be vastly superior to their real-life performances.

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by Sly Boots » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:47 pm

Hm. A few notes of caution from a journo's hands-on with the E3 demo:

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/0 ... ereotypes/

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by Wrathbone » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:32 pm

It's not a huge surprise that the demo focused more on action than on the cerebral parts of the game - I mean, this is E3 where marketing assumes guns and boobs are the reason everyone is there. The stuff about cultural insensitivity strikes me as looking for things to be offended by. I'm aware that racial stereotyping and referring to a group of black people as animals is obviously bad - I don't need a journalist to remind me to find that problematic. What we don't know is how those things are represented in the context of the wider story. It may be that they're intentionally like that for a legitimate reason. Or it may be that the devs are more careless about it than they know. Point is, I don't think this is the time for journalists to start rallying the crowd with pitchforks.

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by DjchunKfunK » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:33 pm

I'm not sure there is any legitimate reason to use racial stereotypes and I don't think it is wrong for someone to point it out, especially as the industry generally has a bad reputation when it comes to this stuff. You might be well aware of them but there are plenty of people who wont be.

I've been concerned about the gameplay of Cyberpunk for a while, ever since they announced it would be first person. They took three games to get the combat in Witcher to a point where it was serviceable so I always had a feeling they would struggle to get the shooting right. It might end up not mattering but with this being the second lukewarm showing that the game has had my excitement for this game has been tempered somewhat.

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by Wrathbone » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:54 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:33 pm
I'm not sure there is any legitimate reason to use racial stereotypes
Of course there is. How is a story meant to address difficult ideas without portraying them?

Inclusion of stereotyping and any other problematic content is not automatically the same as endorsing it, nor is it necessarily an indication of ignorance.

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by Sly Boots » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:00 pm

I think what makes me uncomfortable about it, is some of the stuff GOG/CDPR were coming out with on their twitter a while back, I forget the specifics but from what I recall it was quite insensitive on gender/transgender issues. I'm also aware that attitudes to race can be a bit different in almost uniformly white eastern European countries compared to somewhere more culturally diverse like the UK (I seem to remember a Polish or Czech developer a while back getting defensive about the lack of non-white people in their game and coming off quite badly). What I'm saying is, while what we've been told about so far isn't problematic in and of itself and it remains to be seen what the context is and how it plays out, I'm a little concerned it may not come off very well at all.

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by Wrathbone » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:09 pm

If the dev team are in fact culturally/racially insensitive by our standards, is it not better that they’re attempting to have a diverse cast of characters and making mistakes rather than just having a generic bunch of white NPCs? I think a heavy-handed journalistic approach here is misguided and more likely to stifle creativity than inform social ideals.

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by DjchunKfunK » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:13 pm

How is a story meant to address difficult ideas without portraying them?
I'm struggling to see how it would be necessary to use a stereotype in order to make a point. There are plenty of ways to tackle difficult ideas/issues without resorting to stereotypes.

I'm know what you are saying Sly, the tweet and then the issue with the screenshot that came out of the Nvidia ray-tracing PR stuff, makes me very wary that CDPR are able to treat this stuff correctly.

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by DjchunKfunK » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:16 pm

Wrathbone wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:09 pm
If the dev team are in fact culturally/racially insensitive by our standards, is it not better that they’re attempting to have a diverse cast of characters and making mistakes rather than just having a generic bunch of white NPCs? I think a heavy-handed journalistic approach here is misguided and more likely to stifle creativity than inform social ideals.
Not sure you get a pass because traditionally your country might have slightly different views. CDPR don't live in a bubble they should be well aware of these types of issues, so if they are being insensitive I don't think they should get a pass on either creativity grounds or cultural grounds. End of the day if the story you are telling requires you to be a bit racist then it's not a story I want to hear and probably not one worth telling.

I'm not going to make an conclusions about the game before it's finished but I think it is right for journalists to point out what could be potential issues around these subjects.

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by Wrathbone » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:21 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:13 pm
How is a story meant to address difficult ideas without portraying them?
I'm struggling to see how it would be necessary to use a stereotype in order to make a point. There are plenty of ways to tackle difficult ideas/issues without resorting to stereotypes.
For instance, if you’re highlighting that a character is racist. Or that the culture of the city the game is set in has been reduced to stereotypes because of segregation and corporate media manipulation. There’s a difference between the game saying “all Haitians are into voodoo” and the game showing that the Haitian community in the city have been reduced to that stereotype due to some external influence. I don’t know if that’s the case, but assuming the most simplistic interpretation at this point is unfair.

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by DjchunKfunK » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:26 pm

I didn't say it was impossible, just that I didn't think it was necessary.

Nobody is saying that CDPR have messed up, just pointing out what could be a potential pitfall.

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by Wrathbone » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:32 pm

“Necessary” in this context depends entirely on what story they’re trying to tell. We don’t know what that story is yet.

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by Wrathbone » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:08 am

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2019 ... 077-poster

This gives me some reassurance that they are self-aware about sensitive issues and are (at least in this case) using them in service of world-building.

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 [PC, PS4, XBone] - out April 16 2020

Post by Sly Boots » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:17 pm

There's this as well, which is also encouraging:

https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/cyberpunk-20 ... by-gender/

On the race front, still have some concerns. In one of the comments on one of the articles I've read on the gameplay demo, someone familiar with the tabletop RPG (which I'm not) was saying there's no canon reason for the voodoo-based gang to be all (or predominantly black), nor did they come from Haiti - rather they are of varied backgrounds and are brought together by their ethos rather than race or birthplace. He also said there were dozens of canon gangs they could have chosen from, but they instead made up one of their own, the Animals, who are all black and are the savage-like ones you go up against. Apparently the writer of the tabletop game is also black. CDPR apparently did consult with him, so who knows, maybe it will all be fine. We'll have to wait and see.

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