Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

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Animalmother
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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by Animalmother » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:24 am

I'm firmly in the Fuck No camp with these sort of games. I bounced so hard off Dark Souls I doubt I'll ever touch a game like it again. The only resent roguelike games I enjoyed was the Hotline Miami ones.

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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by Sly Boots » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:32 am

Wrathbone wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:19 am
Mantis wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:27 pm
I don't think they're especially harder than many newer indie titles and many many classic retro titles though.
For me it's not so much the difficulty as the fact that when you die, you have to go through 10-15 minutes of doing the same stuff over and over again on the basis that you'll get better at it. I don't have the time or patience for that, and I don't find that approach makes me any better - it makes me increasingly annoyed which means I end up rushing and failing. It's not an enjoyable challenge.

I know we've had this argument before and it dismayed many people, but it bears saying again: There is no good reason why Dark Souls (and games of a similar ilk) couldn't include an easy mode where you can quicksave, or at least save before a boss fight. Come at me.


*saves*
Thinking about this a bit more, whilst as I've said this type of game is not for me (and I feel confident saying that having given it a bloody good go), I actually wouldn't change them at all. Sure they're not going to be my bag, but I think a quick-save and easy mode, even if entirely optional, would diminish what they are, if that makes sense. I won't play another one of their games, and that's fine, but many for many people they're up there with the best they've ever played, precisely because of what they are. It would be a bit like if there was an optional mode for Planescape Torment that cut out all the story dialogue, because some people don't like to read walls of text and just want to go from fight to fight.

Not everyone has to like every game, I think a lot of the problems of AAA gaming these days (aside from micro-transactions, live services etc) are down to that kind of homogenisation and trying to be all things to all people, losing a sense of risk and uniqueness along the way.

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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by Alan » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:40 am

It’s JRPGs that really need the easy mode. If Octopath had a mode where all characters start at lv99 and random battles are turned off I’d probably have played that way more than I did. But yeah all games should!
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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:45 am

Sly Boots wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:32 am
Wrathbone wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:19 am
Mantis wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:27 pm
I don't think they're especially harder than many newer indie titles and many many classic retro titles though.
For me it's not so much the difficulty as the fact that when you die, you have to go through 10-15 minutes of doing the same stuff over and over again on the basis that you'll get better at it. I don't have the time or patience for that, and I don't find that approach makes me any better - it makes me increasingly annoyed which means I end up rushing and failing. It's not an enjoyable challenge.

I know we've had this argument before and it dismayed many people, but it bears saying again: There is no good reason why Dark Souls (and games of a similar ilk) couldn't include an easy mode where you can quicksave, or at least save before a boss fight. Come at me.


*saves*
Thinking about this a bit more, whilst as I've said this type of game is not for me (and I feel confident saying that having given it a bloody good go), I actually wouldn't change them at all. Sure they're not going to be my bag, but I think a quick-save and easy mode, even if entirely optional, would diminish what they are, if that makes sense.
But this is the thing! If the easy mode was optional, hidden even - maybe a separate free DLC for useless gamers like me - it would make absolutely zero difference to the people who want to play it as intended. Not everyone has to like every game, but I could like these games if given a tiny concession that wouldn't affect anybody who didn't like it. With Dark Souls, a mode that literally just autosaved before a boss fight would make it bearable for me. I try to be an open-minded person but I struggle to conceive any problem with that.

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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by Alan » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:50 am

People are too precious about their vision.
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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by Mantis » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:02 am

Have to say I completely disagree. Not every game needs to be for everyone and games are an artistic expression as much as throwaway pieces of fun.

I just about wanted to punch Robin Walker through the screen when I read that super entitled article he wrote about having a skip boss button in Hyper Light Drifter.

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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:07 am

It's not about preciousness of vision, if you remove the difficulty the game loses a lot of it's reason for being. The world is built on loss, dread and hardship and the gameplay feeds into that. The Souls games do something unique and to change that would ruin them.

Not every game should be designed so that everyone can enjoy them, I dislike a lot of what JRPGs do but I don't think they should suddenly change drastically so that I can enjoy them.

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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by Alan » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:22 am

Souls games don’t need the difficulty to come across as dreary but why shouldn’t people have that option? Not just bad at gamers but people with disabilities. Disable achievements and let people play as an overpowered badass and let them see the game they payed £40+ for.
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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by Mantis » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:30 am

That's on the individual to read a review and know what they're buying before they spend £40 on a game that they might not enjoy because it's too difficult. Developers are not obligated to do anything for you.

The lack of checkpoints adds to the whole aesthetic of the world. You die, you retrace your steps. It's not that unforgiving, particularly because bosses usually have a bonfire very near by anyway.

Just to say as well, I've seen a man beat Dark Souls using a set of Donkey Kong bongo drums as the controller input. That kind of shatters any illusions over how hard these games really are. -_-

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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by Alan » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:40 am

Doesn't take any of that away to have an option for those less able. Hey dude in the wheelchair, you should have read the review for this holiday now climb those stairs to the bathroom like everyone else! ¬_¬

Mario Odyssey does a decent job of this as does Bayonetta of all things. Nothing wrong with easy modes and cheats.
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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by Mantis » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:51 am

I personally think it does take away from it in some respects, that's development time you're going to have to dedicate to implementing such things to ensure they don't break the game and Dark Souls was already unfinished when it launched. Checkpoints before bosses wouldn't work either because of how the integrated online works unless you add bonfires before every fog gate, at which point you're compromising world and level design to cater to more casual players.

Turn your example around. If you used a wheelchair and read online that a hotel didn't have disability access, I doubt many people would book a holiday there just for the challenge. -_-

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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:29 pm

Mantis wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:02 am
Have to say I completely disagree. Not every game needs to be for everyone and games are an artistic expression as much as throwaway pieces of fun.
With the solution I proposed, the original artistic vision still exists. Nothing changes that. If I paint a shitty version of the Mona Lisa in crayon, the original Mona Lisa does not cease to be any less artistically valid.

What about translations of novels into different languages? Should we discourage that because the artistic vision of the original language is lost somewhat in translation? Accessibility does not compromise art.
Last edited by Wrathbone on Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by Sly Boots » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:32 pm

Wrathbone wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:29 pm
Mantis wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:02 am
Have to say I completely disagree. Not every game needs to be for everyone and games are an artistic expression as much as throwaway pieces of fun.
With the solution I proposed, the original artistic vision still exists. Nothing changes that. If I paint a shitty version of the Mona Lisa in crayon, the original Mona Lisa does not cease to be any less artistically valid.
It would if you drew it on the same canvas... ¬_¬

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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:34 pm

Only one way to find out. :lol:

With games it would be a separate canvas, though.

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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Post by Sly Boots » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:39 pm

All I can think of now is that Jesus mural that elderly churchgoer 'improved' a couple of years back.

Image

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