Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

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DjchunKfunK
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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:59 pm

I don't think that's true. A bad story is a bad story and people point it out regardless.
I'm not saying people don't point out a bad story, what I'm saying is that people use a bad story to argue that politics shouldn't be in games but people tend not to mention individual themes when critiquing stories without explicit political themes in them.

I think that shoehorning in societal elements or issues in a clumsy way often comes across as pure tokenism and likely a boardroom decision to tick a box.
This is what I am talking about, why is trying to address something political seen as shoehorning and box ticking from the boardroom if it is done in a poor way? Why is it not just like most other attempts at telling a story in games and just another story that has been poorly executed?

Just for reference could someone mention the games that you are all talking about when it comes to political issues being shoehorned in? There are not a lot of examples about that I can think of, most big games steer clear of tackling political issues and the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are the Quantic Dreams games and whilst they are rather clunky with their story telling I don't think they are trying to shoehorn stuff in, they just want to make those types of games.

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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:29 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:59 pm
I don't think that's true. A bad story is a bad story and people point it out regardless.
I'm not saying people don't point out a bad story, what I'm saying is that people use a bad story to argue that politics shouldn't be in games but people tend not to mention individual themes when critiquing stories without explicit political themes in them.
I'm sure there are places and people where that's the case, but equally I've had many discussions with many different people where specific non-sensitive themes in stories have been explored. I don't think what you're describing is remotely typical of these sorts of discussion.
DjchunKfunK wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:59 pm
I think that shoehorning in societal elements or issues in a clumsy way often comes across as pure tokenism and likely a boardroom decision to tick a box.
This is what I am talking about, why is trying to address something political seen as shoehorning and box kicking from the boardroom if it is done in a poor way? Why is it not just like most other attempt at telling a story in games and just another story that has been executed?
Bad writing is bad writing. But where a bad story about redemption is disappointing, a bad story which implements tokenism can be actively harmful by perpetuating stereotypes.

Again, the issue is not that sensitive topics should be avoided in games. We should be doing more to encourage true diversity and representation in games, but also remain critical of tokenism.

As an example, I remember some people claimed Steve Cortez in Mass Effect 3 was a token gay man as that was his only defining trait in his story, but I actually thought he was a more rounded character than that and was relatively well implemented into the overall story. I'm blanking on other examples - I'll have a think.

EDIT - As another Bioware example, people levelled the same criticism at Dorian in Dragon Age Inquistion. The thing is, I don't recall anyone saying that Dorian or Cortez should have been straight or that homosexuality shouldn't have been explored in those games. The criticism was more that people wanted the characters to be better implemented. Similarly to Cortez, though, I thought Dorian was great, and he had a difficult and complex relationship with his father and culture that tied into his sexuality in a way that felt natural.

An example which I think was largely accepted as positive is Krem in DA:I, who is a transgender character who is well-liked and accepted by his squad mates for who he is. He's handled well as the topic of gender isn't raised until later in the game when you have the opportunity to ask about it in a respectful way, and you learn about his past struggles on the road to becoming a mercenary.

I think what I'm saying is that while there is almost certainly tokenism in gaming (even if firm examples elude me), I don't believe games that have explored sensitive topics for better or worse have been criticised for doing so. If anything, people demand more and better diverse representation rather than wanting games to exclude those topics entirely.

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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:24 pm

So anyway, as long as BG3 includes a sassy pansexual kobold, everything will be fine. ;)



Obviously a joke. Although now I hope there really is a sassy pansexual kobold in the game, because who wouldn't want that?

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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:26 pm

I don't believe games that have explored sensitive topics for better or worse have been criticised for doing so.
They very much have in the wider gaming sphere and this is what I'm talking about, most of my points are not aimed specifically at people on here, they are broader than that.

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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:29 pm

Well, okay, then I guess the answer is that some people are jerks.

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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Snowy » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:23 pm

Poor Asherons - a single comment and he has spawned these (in fairness quite interesting) several pages of reponse.

Agree with WB on the last point, some people are jerks. It is also very easy to read too much into social media responses. In my experience the old adage about empty vessels making the most noise counts to the power of X when it is online. Twitter explodes into angry comments about The Last of Us 2 having a protagonist both gay and female (guessing by DJ's post, I generally avoid social media) - it isn't representative, it is where the hateful can find allies to yell their hate into the ether, but doesn't stop them being a pathetic, vile and tiresome minority.

I have sat and written and re-written this paragraph trying to position my thoughts but am really struggling to do so - I agree with elements of what everyone is saying and think I will just leave it at that :D
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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Sly Boots » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:28 pm

It's a complicated issue and my own stance is that I'm happy to see greater representation of minority groups in games, but there's a long way to go. While an increasing number feature non-white or gay characters, how often do you play as one of those characters? The vast majority of games still see you playing as a white, straight male. RPGs often involve more flexibility, at least those with decent character-creators, but I wonder even then how many players actually choose a character of a different race, gender or sexual orientation to themselves.

I half-remember a fairly depressing stat from Mass Effect that despite having a fairly robust character creator and choice of romance options, the vast majority of players chose to play as the default caucasian male character, playing a soldier class and romancing Ashley (personally I always played a female Shepard and went with Liara).

But to murk the waters, there are times where the opposite can occur, such as when the makers of Kingdom Come Deliverance came under fire from gamers from displaying a distinct lack of non-white people in medieval Bohemia, which they defended by saying that's how it was. If that is true (and I'm not a historian) then inserting non-white characters just for representation reasons would have been tokenism, imo.

I'm also not entirely sure how I feel about the way canonically white characters get switched, such as a fairly core character in the recent Witcher Netflix adaptation (which as a whole I enjoyed greatly), which wasn't done to serve the story so again I'm tempted to come down on the side of it feeling like a token nod to diversity.

I'm also recalling a particularly maddening conversation with my dad where he was slagging off a TV show because of the diversity of its cast, moaning about "everything's all about representation these days". He talked as if it was tacitly understood I would be in agreement, but I took him to task and said why is that bad and more groups should be better represented in media, and he couldn't really defend his position beyond just not liking seeing gay people on TV. But then I know for a fact he's known gay people and been friends with them, so I don't know.

I think it comes down to the fact many people can be uncomfortable watching or playing as someone who doesn't represent their sexuality or race, which, for me anyway, begs the question of those people: how do you think those others have felt all this time?

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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Maturin » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:16 pm

Sly Boots wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:28 pm
I think it comes down to the fact many people can be uncomfortable watching or playing as someone who doesn't represent their sexuality or race, which, for me anyway, begs the question of those people: how do you think those others have felt all this time?
I think a lot of gamers just like viewing the character as an extension of themselves in RPGs - I know I do. So I've always naturally played as a male if there's a choice. Wouldn't even occur to me to choose to play as a woman really.

It's not because I'm uncomfortable with the idea, it just wouldn't make sense when I like to instinctively live vicariously through the game character in games of that ilk.

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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Sly Boots » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:29 pm

Maturin wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:16 pm
Sly Boots wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:28 pm
I think it comes down to the fact many people can be uncomfortable watching or playing as someone who doesn't represent their sexuality or race, which, for me anyway, begs the question of those people: how do you think those others have felt all this time?
I think a lot of gamers just like viewing the character as an extension of themselves in RPGs - I know I do. So I've always naturally played as a male if there's a choice. Wouldn't even occur to me to choose to play as a woman really.

It's not because I'm uncomfortable with the idea, it just wouldn't make sense when I like to instinctively live vicariously through the game character in games of that ilk.
Sure. In that last line I was really just addressing those (and not saying it was directed at anyone here, more people like my dad if anything) who object to the idea of representation being present in their media.

In RPGs, not saying I never play a male character, but quite often I feel like that's the most boring option and I like to try to mix it up a bit, like escapism I guess rather than just being an avatar of myself.

Maybe this says more about me and my opinion of myself than anything :-k

:lol:

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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Sly Boots » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:14 pm

Aaaanyway. Baldur's Gate 3.

I'm properly in the mood for this now, having replayed BG1 & 2 and am now about halfway through Throne of Bhaal. It had been a while since I played them, and had kind of forgotten just how damn fun they are to play.

Although playing the EE of BG2, I did, however, completely side-step the new Beamdog quest content and party NPCs. The last time I played it, I completely ran aground on one of their quests and couldn't summon the enthusiasm to keep pressing through. At the time I thought that perhaps I had simply played the game too many times and grown a bit jaded with it. I was wrong! By avoiding that content completely I've had just as much fun with the rest of it as I always did.

Provided the EA isn't prohibitively expensive (I'm thinking I'd go to £30 tops), I can see me jumping straight in and just experimenting with different classes and builds.

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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Wrathbone » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:39 pm

Sly Boots wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:29 pm
In RPGs, not saying I never play a male character, but quite often I feel like that's the most boring option and I like to try to mix it up a bit, like escapism I guess rather than just being an avatar of myself.

Maybe this says more about me and my opinion of myself than anything :-k

:lol:
No, I probably play as female characters 50% of the time when there's a choice. I forget who pointed this out a few years ago, but it's curious that some people will happily play as a fictional race but not as a different gender. Each to their own though - people play for different reasons.

As for Throne of Bhaal, to me it remains the benchmark for what an expansion can be. It's arguably another game in its own right.

Incidentally, I'm about to replay Icewind Dale once I've finished Oblivion. It always sat in the shadow of the far superior BG games, but IWD is still a great game in its own right, as is the even better sequel.
Sly Boots wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:14 pm
Provided the EA isn't prohibitively expensive (I'm thinking I'd go to £30 tops), I can see me jumping straight in and just experimenting with different classes and builds.
Same here - I'm mainly interested at the moment in how the 5th edition rules are implemented, and since Larian listen to community feedback I'd like to be a part of that.


EDIT - Potentially this might be one of the few games I've ever wanted to play as co-op if others are interested (after I've finished a run through by myself, of course ;) ).

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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Sly Boots » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:52 pm

Yeah, I'd probably give that a go, could be fun :)

As for IWD, I did buy that off Gog quite a while ago, but I found it hard to get into, probably because of the lack of real narrative and focus on combat encounters.

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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Wrathbone » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:56 pm

Yeah, it's very much combat-focused, though IWD2 does have some more non-combat stuff in it.

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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Sly Boots » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:58 pm

Can't remember if I got them both as part of the same deal, if so I might jump straight to the sequel after I'm finished with BG.

Edit: In fact I did! At least, it's in my GOG library already so I assume so. Cool, not even tried that one. If it has a bit more of a story element I'll definitely give that a whirl next.

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Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Asherons » Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:08 pm

Snowy wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:23 pm
Poor Asherons - a single comment and he has spawned these (in fairness quite interesting) several pages of reponse.

Agree with WB on the last point, some people are jerks. It is also very easy to read too much into social media responses. In my experience the old adage about empty vessels making the most noise counts to the power of X when it is online. Twitter explodes into angry comments about The Last of Us 2 having a protagonist both gay and female (guessing by DJ's post, I generally avoid social media) - it isn't representative, it is where the hateful can find allies to yell their hate into the ether, but doesn't stop them being a pathetic, vile and tiresome minority.

I have sat and written and re-written this paragraph trying to position my thoughts but am really struggling to do so - I agree with elements of what everyone is saying and think I will just leave it at that :D
Yeah, those first few posts I was not prepared to go as in depth as some of y'all have gone. I would say my concerns were brought up and better worded by some of the others in the conversation.

I think another part of the "problem" for me is that I am no longer really in the target demographic for majority of entertainment that is being produced, especially with video games, and you cant blame a company for building something for a younger and broader audience.

Thanks for the discussion though, it definitely made me think more critically about my stance which is good practice no matter the topic.

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