Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Mouse and Keyboard Warriors
Post Reply
Asherons
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:00 am

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Asherons » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:13 pm

Wrathbone wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:02 pm
I don't understand why it's a concern. If the possibility of meeting a goblin who isn't inherently evil is going to ruin the game for you then I'm perplexed.
My concerns are not the alignment of goblins but the glaringly obvious social agenda that will be pushed

User avatar
Wrathbone
Local
Posts: 3631
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:08 am

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Wrathbone » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:44 pm

Social agenda? Really? :?

Do you have an example of what it is you’re expecting to see that’s so terrible, along with any basis for it?

Asherons
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:00 am

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Asherons » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:43 pm

Wrathbone wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:44 pm
Social agenda? Really? :?

Do you have an example of what it is you’re expecting to see that’s so terrible, along with any basis for it?
This is obviously my personal preference and opinion. It I am drawn into a game and can see obvious parallels between social problems in today's society and the game then they did a bad job of giving me a new world to be in. The obvious example is the last of us 2 which is set in a post apocalypse setting but for some reason peoples sexuality and religion is(from what I read) a forefront of the game. I haven't played it based off the things I have read and so I don't know if maybe I was reading BS. The first game was well done and I enjoyed it

User avatar
Wrathbone
Local
Posts: 3631
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:08 am

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Wrathbone » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:00 pm

Sorry, but if you don't think sexuality and religion are valid topics for a game story then it's pointless trying to discuss any further.

User avatar
Raid
Local
Posts: 4820
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:07 am
Location: Keep of the Lead Lord

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Raid » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:27 pm

I'm a little in the dark as I don't intend to spoil Last of Us 2's story for myself, so forgive me if I'm wide of the mark, but as I understand it Ellie's sexuality is an issue here?

There have been stories about sexualty since the dawn of human society, it's just that they're about straight relationships and you just don't see them as pushing an agenda because they're so common. Having stories based around same sex relationships is no different, but you can't get to that same point of commonality without telling them. What's wrong with a sizeable portion of our population finally seeing stories they can relate to? Until society can stop seeing same-sex relationships as abnormal, people who aren't straight are going to feel excluded in some way and that's a pretty shitty way to feel.

Asherons
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:00 am

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Asherons » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:37 pm

Raid wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:27 pm
I'm a little in the dark as I don't intend to spoil Last of Us 2's story for myself, so forgive me if I'm wide of the mark, but as I understand it Ellie's sexuality is an issue here?

There have been stories about sexualty since the dawn of human society, it's just that they're about straight relationships and you just don't see them as pushing an agenda because they're so common. Having stories based around same sex relationships is no different, but you can't get to that same point of commonality without telling them. What's wrong with a sizeable portion of our population finally seeing stories they can relate to? Until society can stop seeing same-sex relationships as abnormal, people who aren't straight are going to feel excluded in some way and that's a pretty shitty way to feel.
It is not Ellie I am speaking about in my references to the last of us 2

User avatar
Wrathbone
Local
Posts: 3631
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:08 am

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Wrathbone » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:48 pm

I'm still struggling to see what the problem is. I think what you're implying is that social topics in stories that clumsily force that subject to the forefront are annoying, which I agree with. But - and this is the important bit - they're not annoying because they deal with sexuality or religion or race, etc. They're annoying because they're bad stories. If something is being pushed to the forefront without proper context or reason or purpose then it's bad storytelling. If these topics are dealt with properly so that they're compelling and relatable, they can produce great stories.

So either you have a fundamental issue with social topics in game stories, in which case I don't know how to help you and maybe you shouldn't play story-based games, or you're expecting Larian to produce a bad story for BG3, which as far as I'm aware is based on nothing. Or I'm missing something completely.

Asherons
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:00 am

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Asherons » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:04 pm

Wrathbone wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:48 pm
I'm still struggling to see what the problem is. I think what you're implying is that social topics in stories that clumsily force that subject to the forefront are annoying, which I agree with. But - and this is the important bit - they're not annoying because they deal with sexuality or religion or race, etc. They're annoying because they're bad stories. If something is being pushed to the forefront without proper context or reason or purpose then it's bad storytelling. If these topics are dealt with properly so that they're compelling and relatable, they can produce great stories.

So either you have a fundamental issue with social topics in game stories, in which case I don't know how to help you and maybe you shouldn't play story-based games, or you're expecting Larian to produce a bad story for BG3, which as far as I'm aware is based on nothing. Or I'm missing something completely.
I would say you explained my worries better then I did. If a story is compelling and well done it can discuss an extreme range of topics and still be enjoyed.

But if something feels forced it immediately kills my enthusiasm for it. Not just in games but in movies and TV as well.

User avatar
Sly Boots
Bar Staff
Posts: 6277
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:34 am
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Sly Boots » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:40 pm

I'm at a loss to understand what in Larian's back catalogue would make anyone fear they're going to write a bad story for this.

User avatar
DjchunKfunK
Bar Staff
Posts: 2197
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:02 am

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:50 am

It sounds like you are veering close to the nonsense about Naughty Dog being SJWs that has been appearing around Last of Us 2. Just because a company has chosen to put a homosexual relationship in a computer game doesn't mean they are forcing politics into a game. A section of the population are homosexual so there is no problem with having a homosexual relationship in a game, it doesn't have to be explained why they are gay, just like you don't need to explain why someone is straight. Video games reflect society and as society changes the way they portray society changes. If you don't agree with the stance that's fine just don't buy the game. Same applies if Larian were to put a homosexual goblin in Baldurs Gate 3.

I also find talk about clumsy writing troubling, it feels like cover to complain about something being in a game you don't like/agree with. Criticise a game for having bad writing but I don't think it is right to say a game can only tackle political issues if the writing is good.

User avatar
Wrathbone
Local
Posts: 3631
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:08 am

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:18 am

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:50 am
I also find talk about clumsy writing troubling, it feels like cover to complain about something being in a game you don't like/agree with. Criticise a game for having bad writing but I don't think it is right to say a game can only tackle political issues if the writing is good.
That's really not what I'm saying. I'm saying that when political issues are tackled badly, the story is bad because of the way those issues are handled, not because those issues are present. The same goes for completely non-sensitive topics like heroism and redemption. I was speculating that Asherons' concerns over a 'social agenda' in BG3 was more to do with past cases of games tackling social topics poorly rather than an outright rejection of those topics being in games at all.

In no way am I saying that games should avoid social/political topics on the basis that the writing could be bad. I mean, it's not like studios set out with the intention of any part of their games being bad.

User avatar
DjchunKfunK
Bar Staff
Posts: 2197
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:02 am

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by DjchunKfunK » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:10 am

I agree that if the issues are handled poorly it is right to point that out but at the same time nobody points out specific examples of other issues that are not as political when they are handled badly. You reference heroism and redemptions but I've never seen someone say those topics should not have been in the game because the writing around them was bad. I wasn't aiming my reply specifically at you I just think that the belief that a topic is handled poorly is often cover for it to never being discussed in games. The medium is still growing and at times people will get it wrong but instead of talking about how these topics shouldn't be broached we should be encouraging those games that try, even if they don't get it quite right.

User avatar
Wrathbone
Local
Posts: 3631
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:08 am

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:28 am

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:10 am
You reference heroism and redemptions but I've never seen someone say those topics should not have been in the game because the writing around them was bad.
I haven't said any topics shouldn't be in games if the writing is bad. I literally specified the opposite!
Wrathbone wrote:In no way am I saying that games should avoid social/political topics on the basis that the writing could be bad.
Please stop inventing a problem where there isn't one by putting words in my mouth.

User avatar
Mantis
Landlord
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:39 pm
Location: The Grid

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Mantis » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:14 am

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:10 am
I agree that if the issues are handled poorly it is right to point that out but at the same time nobody points out specific examples of other issues that are not as political when they are handled badly. You reference heroism and redemptions but I've never seen someone say those topics should not have been in the game because the writing around them was bad.
I don't think that's true. A bad story is a bad story and people point it out regardless. It's just more obvious and likely to attract attention when it's covering more contemporary topics because typically they aren't represented as much in games, so they attract more attention when they are done, particularly if they're done badly.

I think that shoehorning in societal elements or issues in a clumsy way often comes across as pure tokenism and likely a boardroom decision to tick a box.

The idea that someone takes offense to orcs and drow becoming more nuanced is funny to me though. Adding in elements of grey often enriches the potential for good stories rather than relying on the same old trope of "they are evil just because they are evil".

I think it will make DnD more interesting if they open up the opportunity for more good to come out of those races, good RP opportunity for being the pure soul struggling in a society that largely predisposes their race towards evil. Hell, it even opens up avenues to explore racism if everyone automatically treats orcs as evil when a lot of them actually aren't all that bad. Very interesting potential.

User avatar
Wrathbone
Local
Posts: 3631
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:08 am

Re: Baldur's Gate 3: developed by Larian Studios

Post by Wrathbone » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:44 am

Here’s the full statement from WotC, which explains their thinking better than I can:

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/featur ... ty-and-dnd

I think it’s a strong, positive step in the right direction.

Post Reply