General Film News

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Jez
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Re: General Film News

Post by Jez » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:20 am

Horses for courses sort of thing I guess. Thought it was all the better knowing they wouldn't survive like Sly says it's a tragic hero sort of thing.
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Mantis
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Re: General Film News

Post by Mantis » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:45 am

I quite liked the idea that they all died, it showed exactly what kinds of odds they were up against where we spent an entire movie getting to know these characters only for none of them to make it. The last 40 minutes or so stand out to me as the best thing any Star Wars movie has ever had to offer.

It's just a shame that the characters aren't that great and the first half of the movie is kind of all over the place with dodgy writing.

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Wrathbone
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Re: General Film News

Post by Wrathbone » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:16 pm

If the characters in Rogue One didn't think it was a suicide mission before embarking on it, there would have been no gravitas.

If they'd gone in expecting to die (which they did) and then survived, it would have felt cheap and gone against one of the key purposes of the film: to show that unlike the happy-go-lucky funtime heroism of the exceptional few like Luke, Han and Leia, the heroism of the everyday troops of the Rebellion was not fun or glamourous and did not have happy endings. Jyn and co are acutely aware of the sort of film they're in and that an exciting John Williams score is not going to spare their lives.

I find it interesting how that plays out in the new trilogy, because exceptionalism seems to be running out. Han lives his entire life on it, because he's Han fricking Solo, but that's not enough to save him anymore. Everyone in the galaxy is looking for Luke because he's Luke fricking Skywalker - the man, the myth - but he's just a grumpy old man who uses his last gasp of exceptionalism as a mere distraction. I'm curious what Leia's fate will be in Episode IX in that regard. Say what you will about the new films, but they deserve a lot more credit than some people give them.

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Re: General Film News

Post by Mantis » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:33 pm

In ways they do deserve more credit, as you've just highlighted, but nothing can really get around the fact that Last Jedi was a completely pointless mess of a movie with the stupidest premises for a plot imaginable.

Force Awakens is okay, particularly in the early scenes before it starts copying too much from A New Hope; and even then there are some redeeming scenes towards the end of the movie.

But Last Jedi? Just no. Worse than the prequels.

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Re: General Film News

Post by Wrathbone » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:36 pm

I'll agree to disagree. Strongly. :lol:

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Re: General Film News

Post by Mantis » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:40 pm

Then, sir, I throw down the gauntlet and challenge you!

By way of bullet point, what is so good about that movie?

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Re: General Film News

Post by Stormbringer » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:55 pm

I think WB is right.
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Re: General Film News

Post by Mantis » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:59 pm

Oh, well, fair enough then. I concede. ¬_¬

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Re: General Film News

Post by Stormbringer » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:00 pm

My work here is done.
I know always that I am an outsider; a stranger in this century and among those who are still men.

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Wrathbone
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Re: General Film News

Post by Wrathbone » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:08 pm

Mantis wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:40 pm
Then, sir, I throw down the gauntlet and challenge you!

By way of bullet point, what is so good about that movie?
Oh crikey, I've not made a bullet-point list for a while! Here goes...

Pros
- I love what they did with Luke. That's probably the most divisive thing about it, but it makes so much sense to me. He ran away after the incident with Ben Solo because he began to doubt his own abilities, doubt the Jedi and doubt the Force itself. He believed that anything he did would either be ultimately pointless or harmful, and he resented the galactic perception of him being more or less godlike and able to solve every problem. So when Rey turns up all like "hey, you're Luke Skywalker, come save everyone again and make me a Jedi!" you can see why he just wants her to fuck off.

- The dynamic between Leia, Poe and Hodo is great. I think this does play into the decaying exceptionalism I was talking about because Poe clearly thinks that is what will win the day, whereas Leia knows that they're past plucky heroics.

- Rey and Kylo Ren. This could go one of a few ways in the next episode, but for now I like that they're reflecting each other in different ways, much as Luke saw reflections of himself in Vader. It's intriguing that in terms of the Light and Dark sides, they're both converging towards a neutral grey area right up until Kylo has the chance to redeem himself and instead chooses to become the new Supreme Leader. At that point they diverge again - Kylo going full Dark Side and Rey heading further towards the light. It's almost magnetic in the metaphor.

- Most of the Snoke stuff is great. I'm still baffled by the decision to kill him, but I'm reserving judgement on that until Episode IX.


Cons
- The casino stuff is pointless. I can't and won't defend any of that.

- The glib humour at the most inappropriate and dramatic times is deflating and frustrating.

- Hodo having to fly the ship to her doom. Because droids are obviously less expendable than admirals.

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Jez
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Re: General Film News

Post by Jez » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:32 pm

How marmite.

All of your Pros I consider utterly in the con section.

Mess of a film...utterly.
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Re: General Film News

Post by Wrathbone » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:12 pm

It's definitely a marmite film. Out of curiosity, would you rather Disney played it safer with Star Wars so that future films are decent but predictable, or took more risks like they did with TLJ so that some people love them and others hate them? A year ago I'd have said most people wanted the latter without a doubt based on reaction to TFA, but with all the hate for TLJ and a reasonable reaction to Solo (which was played as safe as safe can be), I'm not sure anymore.

PS - I realise you could argue that people don't like TLJ for reasons other than Rian Johnson taking risks with it. I'm still curious as to what people actually want from Star Wars these days. You'll never please everyone, but it seems like there are some people who can't be pleased. ;)

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Jez
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Re: General Film News

Post by Jez » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:48 pm

I have nothing against innovating a story or franchise but jeez the mess they made (least in my opinion) of the last film in the name of "subverting expectations" was bonkers. I'm not going to bore people but god it was batshit crazy bonkers what they did with nearly every aspect of the movie, and it all flowed from what I can only think was unplanned chaos in the writing dept.
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Mantis
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Re: General Film News

Post by Mantis » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:01 pm

Agreed with Jez, I'd prefer it if they took more risks with the franchise. I don't think the poor parts of TLJ came from them taking too many dodgy risks, I think they stemmed from awful writing and poor management of things behind the scenes. I actually liked how Luke's character developed, but I still think it wasn't handled especially well.

I don't know how you can really say that the Snoke stuff is great either, because he has about five minutes of screen time where all he does is bully Ren before being killed off. He was a massive wasted opportunity more than anything else.

Poe and Hodo could have done with not being in the movie at all to be honest. His arc made sense in theory, having him emerge as a true leader for the rebels to rally around; but everything about how it was done just felt awfully rushed.

And you're right about the casino planet sub-plot too, total waste of time. In fact, Fin could just not have been in the movie too because all they did for him was send him off on a nonsensical sidequest and then give him a random love interest.

Too many ingredients spoil the broth, and TLJ tried far too much. The big risk it took was having Luke turn out not to be the saviour they all thought he'd be and it was the only part of the movie that really stood out as being any good at all.

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Jez
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Re: General Film News

Post by Jez » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:58 pm

...

Don't forget Mary Poppins or force facetime.

God damn it's bad.
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