The F1 thread

[DjchunKfunK]

I think Jolyon spells it out pretty well in the first section of this article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48583803

[Wrathbone]

Yeah... I disagree with him.

[Drarok]

If Vettel had gone round the corner normally, I think the odds of Hamilton getting the overtake at that point are highly dubious. The fact that Hamilton saw an opportunity to overtake suggests to me that Vettel lost time rather than gained time.

Right. Vettel lost time, Hamilton had the opportunity to overtake, and if not for Vettel veering over to the right would have passed. Vettel left the track, and should have lost position, but didn't. A penalty was applied which corrected that.

[Wrathbone]

A penalty was applied which over-corrected something which Vettel did not have full control over. I maintain the rule, if applied by the spirit rather than the letter, does not apply here. But perhaps the bigger problem is that the minimum penalty the stewards could have applied was the 5 seconds he got, which is a huge amount of time in many circumstances. If they'd had the option to simply make Vettel give up the position, it would have allowed him the chance to re-take it and not been overkill.

Whatever way I look at it, it was a shitshow. F1 can and should do better.

[Drarok]

"Vettel did not have full control over"

So, a dangerous re-joining of the track, then?

[Wrathbone]

Yes, but the purpose of the rule is to prevent intentional dangerous rejoining of the track. Imagine, for example, that Vettel had been sent across that corner as a result of someone else driving into him - should he still be penalised then? By your logic it was a dangerous re-joining of the track so he should be. Vettel's mistake was his fault, but this specific rule shouldn't apply here because he did not have full control in how the car re-joined the track. I'd go as far as arguing that even by the letter of the rule, "re-joining" implies an active decision to drive onto the track as opposed to being forced onto the track accidentally as a result of an incident. Intent is everything in this.

[Raid]

Well, the French GP at Circuit Paul Ricard has proven itself to be a waste of time. I'm not sure why DRS is so much more powerful here than at other tracks, but there's absolutely no point in fighting at any point of the track other than the run up to the chicane on the back straight, because it's so easy to pass there that it's just not worth risking contact elsewhere. The stats will show that this had a large number of on-track overtakes, traditionally a figure that gives an indication of how good a race was, but I bet there were no more than three or four decent ones during the whole race.

The championship is all but over already; Hamilton has the measure of Bottas, as we all kinda knew despite the latter's promising start, and Ferrari just aren't capable of mounting a challenge. At least the midfield is continuing to be quite competitive.

I don't think Gasly is going to last until the end of the year at Red Bull; he may have a compromised race due to starting on the wrong tyre, but he was on the wrong tyre because he wasn't fast enough to get through Q2 on the slower one. Still, 11th (10th after Ricciardo's penalties) when Max managed to get 4th simply isn't good enough, and he's been consistently bad throughout the whole season. Who they'd give the seat to at this point is difficult; of the two Toro Rosso drivers I would have said Kvyat was the better bet, purely because Albon likely needs a little more experience under his belt. There'd certainly be some poetic justice in giving Kvyat the seat, and the guy has clearly matured to some extent, but I still wonder whether he's had his chance at the top team now.

[Wrathbone]

Red Bull certainly are in a pickle with their drivers (barring Verstappen, who is making the car look better than it is). Gasly isn't up to scratch, Kvyat is a reasonable journeyman but I can't see him faring much better, and like you say Albon needs experience. I think the worst thing they could do to Albon is promote him now, which ended badly for Kvyat and looks likely to end similarly for Gasly.

I'd say, at the risk of de-legitimising their young driver programme, they should look externally for someone to replace Gasly for a year or two until Albon has more experience. An old hand like Hulkenberg or Raikkonen, perhaps (or Raikkonberg, as C4 dubbed them).

[DjchunKfunK]

It was pretty much like most modern F1 races to be honest, the only real difference was that they couldn't even overtake during pit-stops. My biggest complaint about the new track is the massive run-off areas, they don't punish drivers for poor mistakes like a gravel trap or grass would do.

Who they'd give the seat to at this point is difficult

Maybe Vettel could go back there. I wonder how Red Bull feel about the move to Honda, hasn't really given them a boost in performance and it looks like Renault have managed to improve their engine, if the speed of the McLaren this week is anything to go by. On that point, it was great to see them make it into Q3 without having to use the soft tyres and they performed well in the race, Norris was really unlucky to lose those places, doesn't feel right that he dropped two more because he had to move out of the way of Riccardo who was coming back onto the track after making a mistake a the corner. Hopefully the McLaren team can continue to improve and edge closer to Red Bull.

[Raid]

I don't think Honda are the problem with Red Bull, I think they've just built a car below their usual standard this year. The Sky pundits have said that it doesn't look as settled in the corners as in previous years, and I don't recall hearing Christian or Max saying they have a power deficit (something they were always extremely keen to point out with Renault). McLaren have improved substantially this year, but I don't think you can put that down entirely to the power unit, given Renault haven't made that same leap. From the unofficial chat in the paddock reported by Brundle and the like, the Honda PU isn't a liability any longer.

There have been rumours of Hulkenberg moving to Red Bull over the last few weeks. I'm not sure how much stock to put in it, Hulkenberg himself has denied it (although that's hardly evidence). I think he'd be more likely to grab a win this year than at Renault, but frankly the reputation Red Bull have for chewing up and spitting out drivers probably wouldn't do him any favours, and the comparisons to Max aren't going to help either. Don't forget that Max was the reason Ricciardo left Red Bull, and I'm not sure why a talented, established driver would want to be Verstappen's teammate under those circumstances.

[DjchunKfunK]

I don't recall hearing Christian or Max saying they have a power deficit (something they were always extremely keen to point out with Renault).

Well if you have burnt one bridge you don't want to be burning the one currently being constructed underneath you.

Yeah McLaren have improved the car as well.

[Maturin]

Bottas just can't maintain the same consistently high performance lap-by-lap in the race itself. Close to 20 seconds behind without any known issues.

Although it's not really a problem for Mercedes I suppose, when Ferrari have an inferior car. But it does lessen the chance of a decent fight between them, which could liven things up a bit.

As for Paul Ricard, it's an absolute turgid mess of a testing track, which should never have been given F1 status. But to be fair, it's not the only dire track on the calendar.

[DjchunKfunK]

Never mind consistency, Botas just isn't anywhere near the same level.

[Raid]

Well that was a shot in the arm this sport desperately needed after last week. While I think it's a shame Leclerc didn't get his maiden win, Max really earned it. I know he screwed up the start, but he was driving like a man possessed by the halfway point. You didn't need the graphics - you could see the extra speed he was carrying through that last corner with the naked eye. It clearly wasn't just the car today, because, well, Gasly.

Another great race for McLaren too, with 6th and 8th. We'll see how they do at Silverstone, but they do look to be the leaders in the midfield now.

[Wrathbone]

Really enjoyed the race, mostly because it was an actual race.

The Verstappen-LeClerc incident... I'm glad the stewards decided it was a racing incident and I think it was the correct decision, but for my money it was a far more contentious issue that the Vettel-Hamilton one. Verstappen was in front - marginally - and technically LeClerc should have backed off at that point, but Verstappen unquestionably pushed him off the track. It's right on the line between what's acceptable in hard racing.

Ultimately, I say let them race, and thankfully this time they did.