The F1 thread

[Wrathbone]

I'm kinda glad I didn't watch this one live because the amount of time spent not at racing speed must have been infuriating.

Yeah, it was annoying, especially having sat through 20-30 minutes of the first red flag only to have another red flag on the first lap of the restart. I'm surprised they didn't hit the grand prix time limit.

[Maturin]

So the stewards proved Verstappen had a deliberate, sudden 2.4g braking while Lewis was right behind him, causing the collision. They added another 10 second penalty to the race but how he hasn't got a grid penalty for the next race is astonishing.

Lewis' best chance of winning next week is going to be getting ahead on pole, ideally with Bottas between him and Max - and just hope to god that Max doesn't get close to him on a corner. I think Max will just clip him or drive him off the track to get the championship, and try to make it look like a normal driving error to avoid being DSQ'd from the title race.

It might even be better for Hamilton to let him past and try to undercut him for the win, just so he stays the hell away from him on the track.

[DjchunKfunK]

I've had enough of Verstappan's disregard for his fellow drivers and the media's inability to call him out, the only person I've seen/heard say anything in criticism of Max's driving is Jolyon Palmer on the F1 Chequered Flag podcast. He is right in saying Max is just willing to crash into Hamilton and has been since the start of the season. He is also right that the decision in Brazil not to punish Max for a blatant force-off has lead to this situation where nobody knows where the line is anymore. It was even worse in this GP because there were no real run-off areas so his forcing of people off the track when they try to pass becomes even more dangerous.

Here's the replay from the helicopter; you can see just how slowly Max is driving; Lewis had ample time to pass him and chose not to

Hamilton didn't know that Max was trying to give him the place back and if I was a racing driver I would be very cautious in trying to overtake Max that close to the wall. Even in this incident where Max was trying to give the place back he was trying to do it in such a way that it benefited him by doing so near the DRS line.

EDIT: Even the one move some have said was good from Verstappan, the second restart where he took the lead, he only makes that move because he doesn't care if he crashes and Hamilton has to steer into Ocon to get out of the way.

[Wrathbone]

So the stewards proved Verstappen had a deliberate, sudden 2.4g braking while Lewis was right behind him, causing the collision. They added another 10 second penalty to the race but how he hasn't got a grid penalty for the next race is astonishing.

Considering Verstappen's repeated rule-breaking and infringements throughout the race, especially since the brake-test was very dangerous and even then he didn't give the place up for another 6 laps, there are grounds for disqualification. It shouldn't matter that it would probably decide the championship - rules should be applied irregardless of that. The 10 second penalty didn't even put him behind Ocon, so it's not a penalty at all. If anything it reinforces Max's belief that he can do whatever he wants and get away with it, even if it means endangering other drivers.

[Raid]

Hamilton didn't know that Max was trying to give him the place back and if I was a racing driver I would be very cautious in trying to overtake Max that close to the wall.

I don't buy that; if you see your championship opponent slowing and there's no indication of flags or safety car, you overtake them. It doesn't matter what the reason is. Hamilton is one of the best grand prix drivers of all time and that gap was big enough, he doesn't need 5 seconds of a car slowing down to make his mind up. Were he afraid of Max veering into him it'd suggest Max had truly gotten into his head, and I just don't think his mental state is that vulnerable these days. He's cautious, sure, but he's never stopped being aggressive.

I have to say the last few races have affected my view of Verstappen. Back in Brazil I said that I was happy that the stewards hadn't interfered, but I'm regretting that now. The Mercedes is now faster than the Red Bull, and Max is getting desperate, throwing every move at the wall to see which ones the stewards will allow to stick. Maybe I'm just fed up with Red Bull's attitude as a whole and that's carrying over to the racing, but it just feels like Mercedes and Hamilton have run a cleaner campaign. Neither team or driver are blameless, but I'm fed up with all of the verbal sniping and anti-competitive rhetoric. The lack of direction from the FIA isn't helping.

I didn't enjoy yesterday's race. It certainly wasn't boring, which is the usual reason, but I just want to see two fantastic drivers battling for position, not moaning to the stewards and barging each other off the track every time they come near. We need to have real race tracks where that's actually possible, and a clearly defined and consistently enforced set of rules policed by the same team of stewards at each race.

[Wrathbone]

Hamilton didn't know that Max was trying to give him the place back and if I was a racing driver I would be very cautious in trying to overtake Max that close to the wall.

I don't buy that; if you see your championship opponent slowing and there's no indication of flags or safety car, you overtake them. It doesn't matter what the reason is. Hamilton is one of the best grand prix drivers of all time and that gap was big enough, he doesn't need 5 seconds of a car slowing down to make his mind up. Were he afraid of Max veering into him it'd suggest Max had truly gotten into his head, and I just don't think his mental state is that vulnerable these days. He's cautious, sure, but he's never stopped being aggressive.

I don't think it was to do with Hamilton being concerned about space, or even entirely about him giving Verstappen DRS on him. To me it came across as total confusion. There had been god knows how many incidents up to that point, with red flags, yellow flags, safety cars and virtual safety cars, so when Hamilton saw Verstappen grinding to a halt in the middle of a straight without knowing why, I can understand his reaction being "WTF is going on?" and hanging back until he knew he wasn't going to get penalised for overtaking under flags or similar. I don't think it was undue caution in the context.

[DjchunKfunK]

Hamilton didn't know that Max was trying to give him the place back and if I was a racing driver I would be very cautious in trying to overtake Max that close to the wall.

I don't buy that; if you see your championship opponent slowing and there's no indication of flags or safety car, you overtake them. It doesn't matter what the reason is. Hamilton is one of the best grand prix drivers of all time and that gap was big enough, he doesn't need 5 seconds of a car slowing down to make his mind up. Were he afraid of Max veering into him it'd suggest Max had truly gotten into his head, and I just don't think his mental state is that vulnerable these days. He's cautious, sure, but he's never stopped being aggressive.

I have to say the last few races have affected my view of Verstappen. Back in Brazil I said that I was happy that the stewards hadn't interfered, but I'm regretting that now. The Mercedes is now faster than the Red Bull, and Max is getting desperate, throwing every move at the wall to see which ones the stewards will allow to stick. Maybe I'm just fed up with Red Bull's attitude as a whole and that's carrying over to the racing, but it just feels like Mercedes and Hamilton have run a cleaner campaign. Neither team or driver are blameless, but I'm fed up with all of the verbal sniping and anti-competitive rhetoric. The lack of direction from the FIA isn't helping.

I didn't enjoy yesterday's race. It certainly wasn't boring, which is the usual reason, but I just want to see two fantastic drivers battling for position, not moaning to the stewards and barging each other off the track every time they come near. We need to have real race tracks where that's actually possible, and a clearly defined and consistently enforced set of rules policed by the same team of stewards at each race.

There was enough confusion during that period that I think it is understandable that Hamilton didn't know what was going on even with all his experience, it was after all a hectic race. He said after the race that he wasn't even thinking about the DRS line which would be the only reason why he wouldn't want to overtake him there. Outside of that it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't overtake unless he was just unsure of what was going on.

Maybe Hamilton is lying but even if he is the reason they touched was because Verstappen broke suddenly which has been proved by the telemetry and the stewards decision. I agree it's a nothing penalty and has been given in this way so as not to effect the outcome of the championship which is stupid as it is not a deterrent which is what Verstappen needs.

[Raid]

Just to clarify, I'm not blaming Hamilton for the contact itself. It maybe would have been advisable to attempt the overtake with a little more space between them (it's not as if he needed the slipstream at that speed), but braking unexpectedly and thus the accident is entirely on Verstappen.

Perhaps confusion was part of it; I watched the highlights programme which makes it difficult to tell how much time passes between events, so I'm not completely sure how little time was passing between the VSCs. But I still find it strange that any racing driver would fail to take advantage of an opportunity like that. Perhaps Lewis took a moment to consider whether his steering wheel had failed to display a flag or safety car warning, but he didn't ask his team about it. I just don't think a driver of Hamilton's calibre would *need* to be told that Verstappen was allowing him to overtake. I absolutely think he was considering the DRS line.

[eny]

Hamilton's overriding motivation at that point in the race was "get over the finish line", he was computing what may or may not be happening at that moment with the lens of "don't let him wipe out the car". It is perfectly understandable that in such a limited amount of time he was ruling out "have I missed a flag" "is there something in the track up ahead" and god knows what, before that extra brake check that finally caused him to move out of the way. It happened so quickly and without forewarning, it isn't surprising really. It should be that both drivers need to be notified before giving the order to return the place, and the action should be carried out outside of DRS advantage too, that much is clear.

[Drarok]

Not to mention there may not even be a flag yet. Had HAM assumed, sensibly, that some shit had gone down right now further down the track that VER was slowing for, he wouldn't want to dive past at full speed into potentially standstill traffic. VER then stamped on the brakes and caused an accident.

HAM pulled one dirty-looking move to my eye, after having endured (and survived!) every dirty trick VER could find. Merc doing whatever bullshittery before the restart where they were crawling along due to it not being a "formation lap" but a "safety car restart" may technically be within the rules, but I'd rather see these things solved on the track, not with only-just-legal fuckery.

VER may "win" next weekend, but he's no champion to me.

[Raid]

Not to mention there may not even be a flag yet. Had HAM assumed, sensibly, that some shit had gone down right now further down the track that VER was slowing for, he wouldn't want to dive past at full speed into potentially standstill traffic.

Alright, I'll concede that there are valid reasons that Hamilton may not have overtaken, but I still don't believe it was anything but a tactical decision. Even if he and Mercedes aren't quite as keen to play games as Verstappen and Red Bull, they're not idiots, and Lewis will have known the DRS detection line was coming up, and knew that Max would try to use it for an advantage. Lewis stays directly in Max's wheel tracks right up until the point the brake test happened, and it's a surprisingly long delay. There was no indication to Lewis as to why Max had slowed (and they were going around a bend on the outside, both drivers would have had vision of the track ahead), and it could just as easily have been the Red Bull's gearbox dying or some other technical fault.

Lewis is more cautious, his aggression more tempered than Max's, but he's no saint.

[Drarok]

Never would I claim anyone a saint, you don't seem to have read past the quoted bit!

Let's assume that HAM and Merc were aware they were going to be let past (they weren't), there is absolutely no earthly way trying to delay a pass is comparable to slamming on the brakes with another car directly behind you that you're 100% aware of.

There's tactics, and there's being a cheating piece of shit.

[DjchunKfunK]

HAM pulled one dirty-looking move to my eye, after having endured (and survived!) every dirty trick VER could find. Merc doing whatever bullshittery before the restart where they were crawling along due to it not being a "formation lap" but a "safety car restart" may technically be within the rules, but I'd rather see these things solved on the track, not with only-just-legal fuckery.

Everyone does that, it's a valid tactic.

[Raid]

Never would I claim anyone a saint, you don't seem to have read past the quoted bit!

I did read the entire post, I just didn't think the rest was relevant to the point I was making. I didn't notice anything "dirty" from Hamilton specifically (although I was exhausted by the point I watched the highlights, so it's entirely possible I just failed to see it), just Mercedes using Bottas tactically to slow Verstappen down while Hamilton pitted.

[eny]

https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-ne ... chumacher/


Yeah right Bernie you ole curmudgeonly scrotum.