The F1 thread

[Raid]

I think the problem with the "hollow victory" angle (which I agree with) is that I genuinely think Red Bull and Max believe all of the crap that comes out of their collective mouths. For them, it's retribution for Silverstone, for the penalties in Saudi Arabia. Max said yesterday that they finally had some luck, ignoring all of the good luck they'd already had. Let's not forget that Mercedes were disproportionally hit by the regulation changes this year, and they spent half the season clawing back that deficit. Was that not ridiculous good fortune for Red Bull?

Incidentally, as I share a very similar name to Christian Horner, I occasionally get the odd Twitter messages directed at him. I've started insinuating that he and Toto Wolff are dating and are going out for drinks later because I hate it when people don't actually check whose twitter handle they're using. Don't worry, I'm correcting them in the same message.

[Wrathbone]

https://www.planetf1.com/news/michael-m ... ification/

[Raid]

So team principals will not be able to speak to the race director from next season.

https://www.nytimespost.com/f1-team-pri ... xt-season/

I'm still not entirely sure why they were able to do it in the first place. I can understand if the race director wanted to speak to them, but it never made much sense for that communication to be two-way.

[eny]

I think it was a way to expedite the review process so that appeals didn't wait till later—getting involved parties' opinions helped get a quicker resolution maybe?

Regarding the rules overriding other rules situation:

https://medium.com/@gwkj1/analysing-the ... 1ca3810060

Masi should be rid of, first off, second, Mercedes should take it to court. 'Any' means 'All'. All lapped cars should have been let through at the earliest it was safe to do so, and how the race ended as a result, should have relied on the rejoin and lap situation, even if it meant ending on the safety car; or, none of the cars let through and let them race. Drivers accept the loss of advantage SC brings, to be further hamstrung (pun intended!) by an ill-advised decision for spectacle is just not cricket.

[Wrathbone]

Very interesting article, though I disagree with his conclusion:

The question now is whether or not Mercedes follow through with their appeal. I would imagine that there is intense lobbying by the FIA that Mercedes do not do so. It is more likely than not that a legally qualified independent tribunal, which the FIA Court of Appeal is given every single member is a lawyer, will find that the regulations were misapplied and there is the potential that they will see an remedy available to them. Verstappen could be stripped of the title and Hamilton would be declared champion.

What is to come will be very interesting but also potentially disastrous for the sport.

If the championship result was reversed, I don't see that as being disastrous. It's applying the rules as they should have been, and unfortunate as it may be for Verstappen that's how it would have played out if the rules had been applied during the race. What will be disastrous is if the FIA do nothing in response to this - i.e. if they don't replace Masi, acknowledge that the rules were not applied and reaffirm their dedication to clear and fair application of regulations, then F1 loses all credibility as a sport. Even if they leave Verstappen as champion, simply acknowledging that this isn't what they want F1 to be would be a huge step in restoring confidence.

The sad thing is that it may be what Liberty Media wants F1 to be.

[Raid]

Unfortunately I think it's disastrous either way; F1 has declared its champion, changing that decision now would be a terrible news story for Liberty and the FIA. It sets a precedent that legal action can overturn the biggest result in the sport, regardless of the context.

What I think Liberty want is a new, young champion. It makes for great headlines and I suspect they'll push it to the point that it drowns out the negative press this result has gotten. Hamilton is one of the best drivers the sport has ever seen, but he's 36 and could retire at any time. I honestly want to see him get his 8th championship, but there's a chance that Mercedes won't be at the top from next year - they'll have spent an awful lot of resources on developing the 2021 car to win the championship, allowing their rivals (other than Red Bull) time to catch up. He may decide he's had enough, and with Verstappen having a championship to his name, he becomes the next guy they all want to beat. Liberty is getting exactly what it wants.

The FIA however ought to be massive embarrassed by this. I don't really know how much pressure the promoter and regulator apply to one another, in my mind it should be absolutely none, but we keep seeing decisions that benefit the promoter. As an example; playing the radio communication between teams and race director (which I don't think we'd seen before this year) was a fascinating look behind the curtain, but it very badly reflected on the sport's governance.

I think it's going to be Liberty telling Mercedes not to pursue this. I don't know whether there's going to be any back-handed deal making going on to make that happen.

[Wrathbone]

Liberty is getting exactly what it wants.

I suppose it depends on whether they gain more viewers than they lose. The overwhelming sentiment I've seen so far has been longtime fans walking away from F1 if this is the direction it's going.

[Raid]

Perhaps, but I reckon they're going with the "all news is good news" angle. They also want to attract a younger audience, so having a younger champion will likely help with that (and it still feels ridiculous to me that Lewis isn't the young champion anymore ) - there was a story a few weeks ago that F1 had successfully attracted a much younger audience than competing motorsports in the US (I forget the exact figures, but I think the average age was in the late 20s for F1 I think, compared to 40s for NASCAR and the like), so I suspect they think what they've been doing has been working. That may make up for older viewers leaving.

I absolutely agree with you that it's problematic for the sport. This was the best year in F1 that I've watched, and the ending really tainted it which is something they really shouldn't have allowed to happen.

[Rossell]

[DjchunKfunK]

I honestly want to see him get his 8th championship, but there's a chance that Mercedes won't be at the top from next year - they'll have spent an awful lot of resources on developing the 2021 car to win the championship, allowing their rivals (other than Red Bull) time to catch up. He may decide he's had enough, and with Verstappen having a championship to his name, he becomes the next guy they all want to beat. Liberty is getting exactly what it wants.

I'm not sure that is correct, part way through the season they said no more upgrades were coming to the car and it was more working out how to get the best out of what they had that lead to Mercedes making up the ground on Red Bull. I think they will be fine and back at the front again next season.

[Raid]

Oh I wasn't suggesting that scenario was likely, merely possible. Mercedes have been the best team because the resources they've had up until the budget cap era have allowed them to put the best people in place. There's always the chance that someone will make a brilliant loophole in the regulations as happened with the double diffusor, but I fully expect Mercedes to be at the front in 2022.

I don't get the technical chat that Sky used to do - Channel 4 just don't bother with it, but have the experts been saying that no further updates happened? I'd be extremely surprised if Mercedes had just not continued to develop their car when Red Bull were matching them for performance at the mid-point of the season. I'd expect comments like that to be a smokescreen.

[Snowy]

What I think Liberty want is a new, young champion. It makes for great headlines and I suspect they'll push it to the point that it drowns out the negative press this result has gotten. Hamilton is one of the best drivers the sport has ever seen, but he's 36 and could retire at any time. I honestly want to see him get his 8th championship, but there's a chance that Mercedes won't be at the top from next year

I don't.

I do think that he was robbed this season, that no way should it have gone to Verstappen, but I don't want Hamilton to become the GOAT as far as the record books show because he doesn't deserve to. Schumacher was the better driver for me, no matter how flawed. Hamilton should not be able to eclipse him, much as I know that is an unpopular stance.

Schumacher won without the best car, Hamilton has never done so. Simple maths for me. Sorry lads.

[Raid]

Schumacher won without the best car, Hamilton has never done so.

I dispute the second part of that. He beat Rosberg multiple times in equal machinery, when Rosberg was demonstrably capable of beating Hamilton. He beat Alonso in the same car. I'll not argue that the majority of his championships were won in a superior car, but I don't recall him ever resorting to outright cheating like Schumacher did.

The reason I don't declare Hamilton as being superior to Schumacher is that I wasn't watching during the real Schumi dominance years, so I don't have as much of a frame of reference.

[Wrathbone]

Schumacher won without the best car, Hamilton has never done so.

His first championship win in 2008 was against a Ferrari that was at least as good as his McLaren.

He's had at least one race win in every year he's competed, even when his car wasn't competetive (his middle McLaren years and his first year at Mercedes).

The only time a team mate has beaten him across a year (in 15 years of F1) was when Rosberg played endless dirty tricks against him (Hamilton wasn't blameless, but Rosberg was even worse than Verstappen this year).

If Masi hadn't invented new rules, Hamilton would have won this year against a Red Bull that performed better than his Mercedes for most of the year.


Sorry, I can't agree with your assessment of Hamilton. As good as Schumacher was, if both drivers competed on their best day in equal cars, I'd have to back Hamilton. He's like Roger Federer: no matter what the situation is, he's the one person you never rule out.

[Raid]

He's like Roger Federer: no matter what the situation is, he's the one person you never rule out.

This. I wasn't watching prior to 2007 so I can't really compare to Schumacher's best, but if the last few years have proven anything, Hamilton is an absolute monster of a driver even when he's not starting in ideal conditions. Nobody in the last 14 years has been so capable of getting from the back to the front as Lewis Hamilton. Verstappen is really the only driver that hasn't relied on an obviously superior car or luck in that time period.