The H.P. Lovecraft Reading Club

[Sly Boots]

In the thick of trying to hit a work deadline atm, so going to keep my thoughts fairly brief this time, if that's ok.

Spoiler

Overall I liked this one, although I think I would have to say that objectively I preferred The Lurking Fear, I'm not altogether sure why. There's not a massive gap between my enjoyment of them, however. Maybe I was put off by the name of the cat a bit? With the anti-Dutch stuff for the most part I found it hilariously over-the-top and consequently found it hard to really take offense from it, whereas the N-word is one thing that immediately gets my back up.

Questions:

1. Why do you think the narrator hears the rats? Why are they leading him downwards?

This I honestly found a bit mystifying. It was intriguing however and I liked that only he and the cats were able to hear it, though as to what it signifies I was still in the dark come the end. The rats that assaulted the villagers weren't supernatural in nature, being vermin attracted by the leftovers being chucked in his ancestors' cess-pits that broke out when the supply of food dried up. But beyond that they had no real link to his heritage so I don't know. I would say it was a sign of his growing madness, but the fact the cats were able to hear them as well suggests they were at least partly tangible to others and not solely himself. Another theory might be they were the spirits of those who had died in the vaults below trying to bring the truth to light, but I don't think this holds up either particularly - as why would they take the form of rats? However cats are often said to be sensitive to the supernatural in literature so I think that aspect supports the supernatural explanation. Were they just the spirits of the rats trying to get back to where they came from? Or something to do with the howling god (which was one bit of the story I found quite mystifying as an HPL relative newcomer)? I don't think we're given clear answers in the text.

2. What do his nightly dreams signify?

Unlike the sound of the rats I think this is clearer, tying him to the unwholesome activities of his forebears while also giving hints (mostly in hindsight) of the ultimate doom of Norrys and the fact it was the narrator leading him to that end. Were the creatures all Norrys, or did the others represent his other companions? I think it's the former, though I can't recall off the top of my head whether he only saw the face of one of the creatures.

3. What happens to the narrator at the end and why?

I get the sense this ties into other HPL themes of which I've only just started to delve into, however it's likely to do with the call of blood, ie what drove his ancestors to such unspeakable acts was also within himself, and when he was exposed to the full truth his nature overcame him. Or perhaps it was to do with the faceless, howling god he mentions? The text says there was nothing to suggest his family were wrong'uns before they moved into the Priory, which was built on the site of ancient, horrific rites. Perhaps this place was always the home of this god and its influence ended up corrupting all those who dwelt within, and eventually it consumed our narrator as well.

4. Why is his own cat found tearing at the narrator's throat?

Maybe it just sensed he'd been overcome by the evil?

5. Did you find this one scary?

Still no I'm afraid

Last note, I did enjoy the psychic expert who kept fainting and eventually ended up in the next cell of the asylum

HPL experts clearly made of stern stuff

[Stormbringer]

Spoiler

Thanks for your response, Sly. I think you hit the nail on the head with most of my questions.

Personally, I think what's really going on at Exham Priory is that behind/beneath all the worship that's taken place on the site over the many centuries, whichever god has been worshipped at the time has really been a front for a secret cult of Nyarlathotep, who is the true power behind the evil lurking at the site. I suspect the De Le Poers "sold their souls" to him or something (however that works) and he's maintained a supernatural influence over their family for many generations, including their descendants. When this De La Poer returns to the old site, whatever malign power was lurking dormant in his blood reawakens and Nyarlathotep calls him downward into the dark, where he assumes his true nature as a crazed cannibal cultist, as was the fate of all the line before him, except for those strong enough to resist, particularly that one guy who murdered the rest of the family and fled for Virginia.

With the anti-Dutch stuff for the most part I found it hilariously over-the-top and consequently found it hard to really take offense from it, whereas the N-word is one thing that immediately gets my back up.

I don't particularly want to derail our discussions about Lovecraft's imaginative horror by getting sidetracked by his awful racism, but it is something we cannot (or should not) deny or defend, so I suppose talking about it a bit is inevitable.

Do you think it's more offensive naming a cat the N-word than calling actual Spanish immigrants "Dagoes" as in Pickman's Model?

Why do you think that single N-word, which in the case of The Rats in the Walls is not even used as an insult, is more offensive than an entire story which basically says the Dutch are little more than an invasive species of inbred cannibal gorillas who only need exposure to the right circumstances and a couple of centuries to descend into their true form?

Would you be more offended, or less offended, if the over-the-top phobias expressed against the Dutch were made about black people instead? Is it the fact that native Dutch people are also white that makes it less offensive, even funny, to demean them?

Which do you think is more offensive: describing a people-group in elaborate prose, using cultural stereotypes and calling attention to their physical features, in the most critical terms, OR using a single word which has been deemed taboo?

Some people (usually people that have never seen his personal correspondences to his friends) think that Lovecraft was "just a man of his time" and that it was generally more socially acceptable to use offensive language back then. The latter point may be true, but Lovecraft was absolutely not a man of his time. He fancied himself as a man who lived about two-hundred years before his time. He had a weird fascination and idealisation of the 18th century and he was of the belief that African-Americans ought to still be enslaved to English landowners. He may have used the N-word here, not as a slur but merely the name of a pet, which wasn't uncommon at the time for black animals, but what he says about foreigners in his fiction and his letters I would say is far worse than any single taboo word he employs. Lovecraft was exceptionally and overtly xenophobic, and even his friends at the time were astonished by his views.

[Sly Boots]

Spoiler

Thanks for your response, Sly. I think you hit the nail on the head with most of my questions.

Personally, I think what's really going on at Exham Priory is that behind/beneath all the worship that's taken place on the site over the many centuries, whichever god has been worshipped at the time has really been a front for a secret cult of Nyarlathotep, who is the true power behind the evil lurking at the site. I suspect the De Le Poers "sold their souls" to him or something (however that works) and he's maintained a supernatural influence over their family for many generations, including their descendants. When this De La Poer returns to the old site, whatever malign power was lurking dormant in his blood reawakens and Nyarlathotep calls him downward into the dark, where he assumes his true nature as a crazed cannibal cultist, as was the fate of all the line before him, except for those strong enough to resist, particularly that one guy who murdered the rest of the family and fled for Virginia.

With the anti-Dutch stuff for the most part I found it hilariously over-the-top and consequently found it hard to really take offense from it, whereas the N-word is one thing that immediately gets my back up.

I don't particularly want to derail our discussions about Lovecraft's imaginative horror by getting sidetracked by his awful racism, but it is something we cannot (or should not) deny or defend, so I suppose talking about it a bit is inevitable.

Do you think it's more offensive naming a cat the N-word than calling actual Spanish immigrants "Dagoes" as in Pickman's Model?

Why do you think that single N-word, which in the case of The Rats in the Walls is not even used as an insult, is more offensive than an entire story which basically says the Dutch are little more than an invasive species of inbred cannibal gorillas who only need exposure to the right circumstances and a couple of centuries to descend into their true form?

Would you be more offended, or less offended, if the over-the-top phobias expressed against the Dutch were made about black people instead? Is it the fact that native Dutch people are also white that makes it less offensive, even funny, to demean them?

Which do you think is more offensive: describing a people-group in elaborate prose, using cultural stereotypes and calling attention to their physical features, in the most critical terms, OR using a single word which has been deemed taboo?

Some people (usually people that have never seen his personal correspondences to his friends) think that Lovecraft was "just a man of his time" and that it was generally more socially acceptable to use offensive language back then. The latter point may be true, but Lovecraft was absolutely not a man of his time. He fancied himself as a man who lived about two-hundred years before his time. He had a weird fascination and idealisation of the 18th century and he was of the belief that African-Americans ought to still be enslaved to English landowners. He may have used the N-word here, not as a slur but merely the name of a pet, which wasn't uncommon at the time for black animals, but what he says about foreigners in his fiction and his letters I would say is far worse than any single taboo word he employs. Lovecraft was exceptionally and overtly xenophobic, and even his friends at the time were astonished by his views.

Spoiler

You've obviously both read and studied Lovecraft extensively Doug so you know far more about the man behind the page than I do or likely ever will, so I think while you see certain problematic passages in light of his own deeply held views I can only make more of a surface judgement. For me personally the Dutch stuff I found more amusing simply because of how outrageously over the top it was. Also, from a modern sensibility, it's such an odd group of people to have such a problem with... and if I'm honest the fact they're caucasian probably does help as well. If it was Belgians, or the French, Germans or whoever I would have had a knowing chuckle as well rather than recoil in horror, but if it was a non-white race then, yeah, I think that does make it magnitudes worse and not amusing. As for the use of dagoes/N-word, I think the fact I can't even write out the latter in full shows the difference it means for me personally- it's a sledgehammer of a word, one that instantly repels me when used by a white person even if the context is seemingly inoffensive (ie a pet's name in this example).

[Stormbringer]

I think that does make it magnitudes worse and not amusing.

Why is it magnitudes worse to be racist toward non-whites, but okay or even funny to be racist to whites?

Reminds me of my brother-in-law; we used to play board games every hour of every day over the Christmas holidays. During these sessions, he'd do accent impersonations of Russian, German, Irish and Scottish people constantly. One time we played a Samurai themed game and I did an impersonation of a Japanese accent, and he threw a fit, saying I was racist.

[static]

Do you think anybody reading this back in the day found it racist? I doubt it.

I think he's saying... If you have the genes of some kind of debauched lineage you are doomed to follow. There is no escape.

Rats live underground. They eat shit. They live in the dark. They want to get/keep away from humans. They're drawn to their own kind. And others will be fearful of them in turn - the locals don't want anything to do with him.
The narrator is a rat that is being drawn by spirit rats to an ancient rat lair.
The narrator is drawn to this old place because of its darkness like a rat is drawn to a sewer. Just like his forebears were.

The narrator is drawn to Norris because he also has a similar darkness within him.

The narrator has a cat and (for reasons unknown) takes in many more once he gets to his new home. Original cat ends up trying to chew his throat out.
Cats carry a parasite that infects a rats brain making the rat not scared of cats, which can also be transferred to humans.

So instead of being infected by bat disease (vampire), they have this strange rat disease (Toxoplasma).
(Not sure of the history of Toxoplasma / if HPL would be aware of this)

Narrators son is dead so there is no lineage to continue to feed the rat lair unless Norrys has offspring to continue the line...
"Shall a Norrys hold the lands of a de la Poer?"

[Stormbringer]

Well that was unexpected. Hello and welcome to The Gamer's Arms?

I don't think anyone reading this story in 1924 would have been concerned about the use of the N-word as the name of a cat, no.

People at the time were concerned about some of the views HPL expressed about other people groups, though, both in his letters and in his conversation. He was quite verbally unrestrained in his loathing of those he described as not being of "Teutonic" descent.

Anyway, we could talk all day about racism. Let's get back to the interesting stuff...

I assume you don't mean the narrator is literally a rat, static, though I had not thought of the narrative in those terms before. Interesting idea. Reminds me of the Pied Piper of Hamelin!


+ + +



Well, this would be the day I would be promoting themes for the next story, but it looks like interest in this project is waning rapidly. We've lost Snowy, Mantis, possibly even Gibby. Should we bother continuing, or let it fall into ruin like Exham Priory?

[Sly Boots]

I can only really speak for myself and say I'd like to carry on at least, I'm enjoying reading the works of an author I've not explored before. If work schedules are getting in the way of a weekly cycle, we could make it fortnightly? Like a week to read it then a week to post thoughts on it?

[Stormbringer]

Well, for you, Sly, I will carry on! I shall begin preparing a list...

[Stormbringer]

Right, next stop on the tour could be...


1. More Cannibalism!
2. Ancient Noble Family Castles With Dark Secrets in the Cellar!
3. Old Family Houses With Dark Secrets in the Cellar!
4. Secret Nyarlathotep Cults!
5. They Put Me In An Asylum!
6. Cats: the Ultimate Life-Form!
7. Cursed English Noble Families Who Were Totally Fine Until THAT ONE GUY Did Something Different...
8. Abhumans in Caves!

[Sly Boots]

6 sounds pretty good

[Stormbringer]

Just realised I had two 3s, so 6 is now 7. ¬_¬

That's great. This weekend's reading will be Facts Concerning the Late Arthur Jermyn and His Family.

Read it here.

[Sly Boots]

Nice, thanks Doug, your HPL curation is appreciated

[Stormbringer]

Morning!

Did anyone read Facts Concerning the Late Arthur Jermyn?

[Sly Boots]

Hey Doug. We've been painting since the end of last week now our loft is finished, so I must admit that I haven't done so yet. My aim is to do it in my lunch break today, though.

And what has happened to Gibby and Mantis?

[Stormbringer]

Snowy was last seen in the Holland Churchyard.

Mantis was last seen in the Catacombs of Nephren Ka.

Gibby was last seen in the Martense mansion.


I wonder what fate awaits you? ¬_¬