And that's me unsubscribed from Mack

[Raid]

In his defense he did have a legitimate point about the black guy stopping the white guy wanting to approach a pretty girl because....why exactly ? I mean his point about biology is correct. I mean if your dad did not chat up your mum you would not be here. Ask your dad. I find I am attracted to women that I find attractive because of biology and if I was not a happy family man I would approach and chat up women because...I am a heterosexual man. If I was stopped by a "mate" from just approaching a women to get to know her I would shout in his face "get the fuck out of my way". I still don't get it. Why would I stop a friend from chatting a girl he fancies. That scene is a disgrace.

It's not about the reason behind it, it's about how it makes the other person feel. That's what Mack and others of his ilk don't understand. Biology isn't an excuse. Biology makes it more likely that a man could beat up a woman if he felt like it, but everyone understands that that's not acceptable, don't they.

I think the shot of the guy stopping the other guy in the street is a bit quick to get its meaning across well; I think it's meant to refer to things like catcalling or other come ons in situations where it's not really expected by the affected party, such as when they're just walking somewhere. How Mack jumped from that to "that man is stopping the other man from raping" I don't know.

I'd say Mack's accent is Sunderland (the informal name for which is Mackems, so it'd make sense if that's what his username refers to); it's not quite Tyneside, there's a twang of Teeside in there too (Sunderland being between Newcastle and Middlesbrough).

[Achtung Englander]

fair point and I agree with everything you said there but that scene still make no sense. I truly feel sorry for young men today. They must be utterly terrified to approach women because everyone jumps to 100. Everything is extreme now. Its getting beyond boring.

[Mantis]

I get the feeling that what Raid said about the guy stopping the other one from approaching her in the street is right. Of course many will interpret it as not being allowed to approach a pretty woman anymore, but when considered in context of the rest of the advert I'm pretty sure it was a criticism of catcalling and men giving women unwanted attention.

Think about real life, how many women do you really think enjoy having a random guy following them to chat them up in the street? Sure, some probably like it, but I'd wager that the majority don't.

I have male friends who are currently dating who do express concern over making the first move on women nowadays, even to the extent of being the first to say hello on Tinder, which is a shame, but the reality is that I don't think it really affects that many men who just take onboard the actual message behind these kinds of campaigns which is to act considerately and don't be a creep or a macho alpha male dickhead. Avoid those three things and you'll find that most women won't be immediately offended if you make the first move on them in the right moment.

[Raid]

I truly feel sorry for young men today. They must be utterly terrified to approach women because everyone jumps to 100.

I don't know how true that is, it's not as if the human race has stopped reproducing in the last few years, so clearly there are plenty of healthy relationships out there. The problem with that argument is that it's been co-opted by anti-feminists to discourage feminism, when I'd say there's a good chance there's some truth to it. I think it'll balance out; it's not as if women have stopped being attracted to men, they're perfectly capable of initiating contact themselves. Just making men aware that it's not ok to hit on women whenever they feel like it can surely be a good thing though.

[Sly Boots]

Just treat people with respect, whether they're men, women, old, young, black, white or any ethnicity... it shouldn't be complicated.

I feel like our generation and the one behind will have the most trouble here because we're trying to throw off a lot of attitudes still prevalent in our parents' and grandparents' generation and while it may sometimes feel like a minefield hopefully by passing our more enlightened attitudes onto our children in a generation or two it will just be the normal way of doing things and it wouldn't occur to people to think or act any other way.

I try to be an optimist and not believe that hatred and assholery are just part of human nature and we're screwed.

[Achtung Englander]

what if some women like cheap macho dicks ?

At Uni, back in 1993, it took me near on 6 months of constant rejection from a girl and yet I persisted, turned on the romance and asked her out when I could. We ended up boyfriend girlfriend for a year before we went out separate ways. In this day and age I would be called pervert or a nuisance. There are news reports that young people are more depressed than in any time before yet we have more equality and more access in finding someone in the history of mankind. A work friend of mine, who is good looking and in his late 20s, showed me Tinder. In a space of 2 minutes he love hearted 5 amazing good looking girls. An hour later one of the girls sent him a message "wanna meet up for sex tonight". Whether he was being catfished or not, the fact is, there is so so much mixed messaging now, that I am not surprised guys (and girls) are so fucked up in the head.

[Mantis]

People like people of all kinds, we're just animals at the end of the day and different behaviours evoke different responses. It's fine to like big aggressive alpha males just as much as it's fine to like men who aren't.

The point is that being a macho dickhead as a default position isn't really necessarily the best way of approaching things; and that a company which sells razorblades and has always used the image of the big strong stereotypical man for advertising has decided that they want to drop the shallow marketing in favour of something new.

The culture and idea of what a man should be like has been drilled into our heads for centuries, pushing them into feeling like they need to be the big tough alpha actually causes quite a lot of psychological damage to some men because they feel like they aren't proper men otherwise. It's not going to bring down our species and resort in a matriarchy where women cut our balls off for fun just by stopping propagating the image of the alpha male in a bit of TV advertising.

Also, regardless of what you would have been called back then compared to what you'd be called now, but you did basically harass a girl for six months until she agreed to be your girlfriend.

[Sly Boots]

Sometimes you just gotta hang in there until the old Stockholm Syndrome kicks in

[DjchunKfunK]

I think the scene of the guy stopping the other one is clearly about catcalling and is fairly plain to see when taken in the context of the whole advert.

what if some women like cheap macho dicks ?

At Uni, back in 1993, it took me near on 6 months of constant rejection from a girl and yet I persisted, turned on the romance and asked her out when I could. We ended up boyfriend girlfriend for a year before we went out separate ways. In this day and age I would be called pervert or a nuisance. There are news reports that young people are more depressed than in any time before yet we have more equality and more access in finding someone in the history of mankind. A work friend of mine, who is good looking and in his late 20s, showed me Tinder. In a space of 2 minutes he love hearted 5 amazing good looking girls. An hour later one of the girls sent him a message "wanna meet up for sex tonight". Whether he was being catfished or not, the fact is, there is so so much mixed messaging now, that I am not surprised guys (and girls) are so fucked up in the head.

I'm not sure who exactly would be calling you a pervert. Were you treating the girl with respect? If so then you would be fine.

As for your examples welcome to the world women have been living in for the whole of civilization.

One of if not the main reason more young people are being diagnosed with depression is because depression is more widely recognised as a medical condition and doctors are more likely to diagnose patients as having it. By trying to blame depression on equality it feels like you are trying to say we should let men continue to treat women poorly because it is better for their health. The human race does not depend on men being able to just walk up to any women and chat them up.

When it comes down to it the more equal way of behaving is harder and people often don't want to do what is harder but I don't think that should stop us from allowing half of the population to have a better life.It will take time for the whole of society to change and during that time some things will go wrong but it's all worthwhile and I don't think there is really a valid argument against it.

[Wrathbone]

I spent several minutes yesterday thinking about the Gillette advert based on an article I'd read on the reactions to it (I've still not even seen the ad) and wondering whether a shaving company had any reason to raise the subject of toxic masculinity, or whether they're the perfect company to do that being targeted specifically at men, and whether people were being far too reactionary or if this or that or whatever.

And then I stopped and realised I was worrying about the consequences of society's response to an advert.

Challenging toxic masculinity and educating as to why it's problematic is important. Fretting about an advert and whether its approach was necessary or effective is not.

[Achtung Englander]

If you want something you need to work hard for it and I won her over because she was impressed that I would not give up and because I treated her nice - so yeah I am glad I was brought up then and not now. I have no envy for young people, I pity them.

[Solitaire]

If you want something you need to work hard for it and I won her over because she was impressed that I would not give up and because I treated her nice - so yeah I am glad I was brought up then and not now. I have no envy for young people, I pity them.

I'm with you on this one, AE. I spend some time mostly ghosting on the Roosh forums mainly to see what the right-wing wacko alpha-male dickheads are up to. It's always a good idea to keep an eye on the enemy . . . I post on very rare occasions to see what kind of reaction I can get. This Gillette advert has made some waves over there, for sure. There's a lot of discussion about it. I'm uncomfortable about the origins of this commercial, honestly. The director and production company are known for SJW bullshit. Watching this, one has to be cautious that they aren't glossing over certain things, making coincidences out of what are in reality quite deliberate directorial choices - the only men acting poorly are white? Why is this, exactly? And so on.

There are these various factions out there - we have the macho men "Chads;" the perfect 10 Instagram chicks with a million+ beta orbiters; the SJW's of all ilk; sluts that are proud of it; thots and hoes; cuckolded dipsticks; etc etc all thrown into this Western culture that now glorifies the hook-up scene at least in the States, dunno about you lot over there quite so much but I imagine it's similar thanks to Tinder and the like. Who knows which ones of these factions I'll run into on any given night out at the bar. If I were my young, non-confident self I'd be terrified of the dating world, for lots of reasons: I don't like one night stands, at all; I actually prefer a girl with some self-respect; I don't have "game," no one-liners, none of that BS; no telling if the girl you're talking to is DTF or ready to get your dumb ass tossed in jail for thinking yes means yes/no/maybe.

Wouldn't it be great if people would treat each other with respect, as a general rule. Kinda thought that was the way the world was, when I was a little kid, since it seemed like that's how my parents were teaching me to be. That's the world I thought I was going to fit right into. It's the wrong way of thinking about it. I've realized I have to create that world around me, with the friends I choose and the family I hold near and dear. Everything else is a crap shoot. Some nights at the local bar I'll end up talking to nobody except the bartender. Other nights I wind up dragging myself in the door at sunrise, having had the time of my life out on some adventure. But dating? I'm not sure the girl I'd really want to spend the rest of my life with actually exists.

Okay sorry for the rant

[Strudel]

With regard to the advert, I haven't even seen it yet but phrases like "known for SJW bullshit" immediately make me think that the author is going to ignore all the relevant and problematic issues at play and pick on something else. The term SJW seems to be used by those on the right to denigrate those on the left or who campaign for social and moral causes - as if social justice and equality were in some way a bad thing?!

I find it interesting that you say:

Wouldn't it be great if people would treat each other with respect, as a general rule.

Almost immediately after:

I don't like one night stands, at all; I actually prefer a girl with some self-respect

Just because you don't like one night stands, doesn't mean that people who do lack self-respect or in some way not as good as you. "Sluts that are proud of it" suggests that you think people who enjoy sex (god forbid!) are some how bad people. Is that what you meant , or is it just a poor choice of words?

It's all very simple really; you complain about getting tossed in jail for thinking yes means yes/no/maybe - you've got it the wrong way round - yes means yes at that point, but if they change their mind then that's perfectly allowable and acceptable and you SHOULD accept it. Yes yesterday doesn't mean yes whenever you want it. Is the concept of checking for consent really that difficult to master?

[Snowy]

Interesting discussion.

On the one-night stands comment, I have had a couple back in the past and I always found them quite a tawdry affair. I didn't particularly respect the girls concerned afterwards and also came away feeling I had let myself down. Thinking on it, a lot of it is probably down to my upbringing dictating my response. My views align quite closely with Todd's there.

[Achtung Englander]

never had a one night stand

Not sure if I missed out ?